Get some perspective ...
Wait, so are you guys really saying that the voodoo sacrifice of a few anonymous forum dwellers will NOT magically fix Civ 5 and create a game everyone loves??
Stop passing the buck to Firaxis
- Thread starter evrett37
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Wait, so are you guys really saying that the voodoo sacrifice of a few anonymous forum dwellers will NOT magically fix Civ 5 and create a game everyone loves??
Wait, so are you guys really saying that the voodoo sacrifice of a few anonymous forum dwellers will NOT magically fix Civ 5 and create a game everyone loves??
I'm afraid so
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Even if NDA's have never been enforced through litigation, I would not take that to mean that they cannot be. Corporations take their proprietary and intellectual property rights pretty seriously (Disney has sued pre-schools for painting Mickey Mouse on their walls without permission), even at times in the face of PR risks.
This would not be a libel or slander suit, where truth may be a defense, it would be a breach of contract suit, and the penalty is damages, not some fixed penalty in law. If there were a massive cancellation of pre-orders apparently based on a tester whistle blow, that would be measurable damage that could be sought in court. Not a risk I would be interested in taking. Nor one I would advise anyone else to take.
But can I assume you will do that for us in Civ VI (if any)?
dV
They can't and it's extremely unreasonable for you to think they would.
Their NDAs are legally binding agreements. Why would they risk getting sued over a game? After all it's just a game for crumb's sake!
What don't you understand?
ciV sucks. I totally agree with you on that but it's ridculous to try and crucify people who are innocent victims as well. I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that they think ciV sucks too.
Just watch TMIT's Let's play ciV. He not exactly gushing about it.
What has the world come to?
Anyway I`m starting to think you`re exaggerating things here evrett37. Don`t forget we live on planet Earth. And planet Earth is the exact opposite of Utopia. Why should a random beta tester give a
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You are wrong. Just believe me.
And there's a NDA, and the testers will sure not violate it. Point.
You are wrong. Just believe me.
And there's a NDA, and the testers will sure not violate it. Point.
They have nothing to explain. I wouldn't imagine there is any point in reasoning with you, but read my post (along with most of the others in this thread for that matter) and educate yourself about what a beta tester actually does.
evrett37
Prince
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Then the testers loyalty is to their agreement and the company and not the "game" or the community. And there should be accountability for that unless we want more of the same.
I agree 1000%. I just feel your anger is misdirected. It's not the beta testers' fault.
The blame lies with 2K Games and Firaxis. The lead designer should take the lion's share of the blame.
We do need to let Firaxis know that this half baked, unbalanced mess which is about as much fun as dry heaving is completely unacceptable.
Perhaps a petition would be a good place to start?
jpinard
Martian
I've seen some inside comments that the beta testers vehemently opposed some ideas and Firaxis refused to listen to them.
So the testers hands were tied and will continue to be tied. The people involved in the test group are intelligent, good, hard-working people. I also think they may not want to rock the boat too much as sadly Firaxis has become much more closeted over the past few years.
I've been critical to the Frankenstein group, but the fact is their lack of promoting (& defending) how incredibly awesome Civ V is - speaks volumes. The tactical AI is very worrisome, and sadly it may be something no modder can fix... which is awful because modders helped make the tactical AI for Civ IV superb.
So the testers hands were tied and will continue to be tied. The people involved in the test group are intelligent, good, hard-working people. I also think they may not want to rock the boat too much as sadly Firaxis has become much more closeted over the past few years.
I've been critical to the Frankenstein group, but the fact is their lack of promoting (& defending) how incredibly awesome Civ V is - speaks volumes. The tactical AI is very worrisome, and sadly it may be something no modder can fix... which is awful because modders helped make the tactical AI for Civ IV superb.
That list has some very respected people in the modding community. I guarantee they were all not "yes men".
I beta tested for Play the World. After it was released... I didn't even bother to look at the reviews or read the forums here at Civfanatics. I already knew what they would be. (it was released in a terrible state) I felt a tad guilty, because I didn't play as much as I wanted to, but, there were a few things I saw that upset me.
I guess I can put it like this:
The developers of these games play them all the time, and get bored of working on them. So sometimes their focus shifts to bells and whistles or perhaps things they are interested in.
********************
Really, I think it took a serious swallowing of Sid Meier's desire to design, and pride, to let it come out like this. I think he tried to remind himself to go ahead and play with the franchise, to let "new" ideas be fleshed out. To not immediately shoot down what seemed to be nonsense to him... but he should have shot them down.
The franchise is fine, but who here actually believes they are still popping champagne bottles at Firaxis? They are going to polish this turd as well as they can, because they have to. But I'd bet, this series will only have one expansion.
I imagine Sid is actually quite a bit upset with himself.
******************
I see it all the time, especially in the mod forums. People on forums complain about things, and then supply suggestions to fix it. The suggestions are usually simplistic, and usually have a whole bunch of unintended consequences attached.
Somebody here said it is hard to screw up the civ franchise, and I believe it. They said they could have made a better civ V... and I believe it.
The design philosophy of Civ V was flawed from the outset. The whole "tear it down, build something better" philosophy was flawed... because Civ IV's design was damn near perfect... even at Vanilla release. I played the hell out of it when it first came out.. I looooved it.
*******
Finally, business is business. Somebody has about 3 years to take the TBS crown from firaxis and Sid Meier.
I beta tested for Play the World. After it was released... I didn't even bother to look at the reviews or read the forums here at Civfanatics. I already knew what they would be. (it was released in a terrible state) I felt a tad guilty, because I didn't play as much as I wanted to, but, there were a few things I saw that upset me.
I guess I can put it like this:
The developers of these games play them all the time, and get bored of working on them. So sometimes their focus shifts to bells and whistles or perhaps things they are interested in.
********************
Really, I think it took a serious swallowing of Sid Meier's desire to design, and pride, to let it come out like this. I think he tried to remind himself to go ahead and play with the franchise, to let "new" ideas be fleshed out. To not immediately shoot down what seemed to be nonsense to him... but he should have shot them down.
The franchise is fine, but who here actually believes they are still popping champagne bottles at Firaxis? They are going to polish this turd as well as they can, because they have to. But I'd bet, this series will only have one expansion.
I imagine Sid is actually quite a bit upset with himself.
******************
I see it all the time, especially in the mod forums. People on forums complain about things, and then supply suggestions to fix it. The suggestions are usually simplistic, and usually have a whole bunch of unintended consequences attached.
Somebody here said it is hard to screw up the civ franchise, and I believe it. They said they could have made a better civ V... and I believe it.
The design philosophy of Civ V was flawed from the outset. The whole "tear it down, build something better" philosophy was flawed... because Civ IV's design was damn near perfect... even at Vanilla release. I played the hell out of it when it first came out.. I looooved it.
*******
Finally, business is business. Somebody has about 3 years to take the TBS crown from firaxis and Sid Meier.
Jerrymander
Epistemologist
...so? Shouldn't the testers have loyalty to their agreement? I would think so.
cr0ws
Prince
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Marketing is a
and where there is money and profit involved, great evil and wickedness followeth. It's a swine eat swine world out there.
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Peregrine
The Swift
As someone who was once asked to join a testing group, I can state categorically that yes, a tester IS required to remain silent about the process. You sign the agreement before the test disk is ever sent.
Perhaps these folks expressed their concerns after testing. Maybe not. Bottom line is; no one knows. Blaming that group for anything, right or wrong, is certainly jumping the gun.
Doesn't change the fact that the game is a failure with a significant number of veteran players/loyalists. Or that its systems are poorly thought out and poorly implemented and that the release has fired up an unprecedented furor throughout the civ community as represented by the seemingly unending critical threads on this site (among others). Bad things are happening post-release. No arguing that.
Perhaps these folks expressed their concerns after testing. Maybe not. Bottom line is; no one knows. Blaming that group for anything, right or wrong, is certainly jumping the gun.
Doesn't change the fact that the game is a failure with a significant number of veteran players/loyalists. Or that its systems are poorly thought out and poorly implemented and that the release has fired up an unprecedented furor throughout the civ community as represented by the seemingly unending critical threads on this site (among others). Bad things are happening post-release. No arguing that.
Many people here have told you that beta testers can't change anything or make design decisions. Do you honestly believe that real, live human beings would take some sort of gamer's club 'kum-bah-yah' feeling more seriously than a legal contract?
Seriously, are you just really young? It's okay if so, I'm not trying to be judgemental... I just can't understand if you're really serious with this whole "persecute the testers" thing or not.
I actually thought this thread was a joke at first... but.. no?
I just can't understand if you're really serious with this whole "persecute the testers" thing or not.
I actually thought this thread was a joke at first... but.. no?
He`s just being human. There`s nothing here to do with age. When something goes wrong we need someone to blame. In this case he blames the game devs and the testers. Nothing wrong with that. And i think we should let him do as he does. To deny this would be like forcing someone to be inhuman.
Civ IV was a result of the "tear it down and build something better" design of Civ III (which was also derided by hardcore Civ II fans as being a stupid idea to change the series when it was already perfect). I expect Civ VI will be the awesome refinement of the not quite ready for primetime ideas we see in Civ V.
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