Strategy Discussion

[Earthling]

I should preface this by saying that I personally agree with a production city as #3 (Southeast city). Just that it's doable either way if the team really wanted to go another way. But I don't see too much of a detriment to having military production on our home island, and a coastal city at that (ships are SO much easier to build with HE, and this city could feasibly get HE rather easily and be solid). Basically, we hope not to be fighting wars on the front lines, if we were pushed back we'd be whipping and whatever anyway, and units being heavily built in a city where it just takes a turn or two to ship them over isn't that big of a deal otherwise.

Some thoughts - we absolutely may want to build wanders, and a lot of the forests on our home island might end up going for that. Even if we just whip a granary/barracks/lighthouse that is still a bunch of early whips, though it depends on the city. But if the forests go towards the Great Library, or Colossus, or any other wonder, then just having one more city with lots of production/whipping going on doesn't seem too bad.

As far as tech goes - hitting Civil Service by turn 100 or even earlier is very likely imo. Or at least equivalently far in the tech tree, by another path, but I don't see us going for fast machinery or something like that right now. Tech is going to proceed extraordinarily fast this game, for anyone who hasn't realized. The goal of course being that we are ahead of the curve and trading with the right allies, but even a team teching mostly on their own has massive GNP due to the resources placed by the mapmakers. But as far as civics and things like farm irrigation go - we could certainly have unlocked the religion civics, caste system, bureaucracy etc... all rather quickly. So we should be planning for what we're going to run hopefully long term, rather than a short stint in some other civic.

Also, I fully expect to build like 3x the military I would in a normal single player game for me on this one, by the way Speaks to different playstyles/settings or whatever too, but I've never found the case where I didn't appreciate a larger military in an MP game.

 

[RegentMan]

Heh maybe the main continent is a flower shape with little starting islands between each petal.

 

[Earthling]

That's very a good way to describe it, so yes, I'd agree that seems rather likely. In particular I think the sailors on the Rio Grande may be about to make some discovery.

One thing we should consider though, that may become an important factor, is how the 2-tile settling rule applies on various peninsulas. Basically, with all the narrow isthmuses and similar geography, a lot of land can be blocked off with little effort. In particular, that center hub could block settling nearby because the two tile rule applies even if there's water in between, but it's the same continent. The short answer is that we just want to get to settle in places first so we have the land, and if it prevents others from settling too close that's all the better.

 

[Provolution]

The overall strategy is the following:

We got India east of us, and unknown neighbor right to our north as well. India got fast worker and mausoleum, and they got Hinduism as the only other religion as well as their second city up and running on their island.

Militarily, they are an obvious target, as they got a religion like us, and they are in good reach for our Numidian cavalry as well as our fleet.

Based on this I move we nominate the following tech strategy to position us towards India.

Pottery-Sailing-Writing-Math-Hunting-Animal Husbandry-Currency-Iron Working

We need to know asap if we have access to spearmen, axemen and swordsmen or not, we may need to compensate with archers worst case scenario (Archery after Hunting, need be), as well as access to our very UU, the Numidian Cavalry.

We still need to enforce our land rights in this star-shaped continent set-up, so going towards calendar and avoiding military resources I consider not wise, in line with my general view on Slavery and Rexing without balancing strategies (Stonehenge).

 

[Provolution]

The overall strategy is the following:

We got India east of us, and unknown neighbor right to our north as well. India got fast worker and mausoleum, and they got Hinduism as the only other religion as well as their second city up and running on their island.

Militarily, they are an obvious target, as they got a religion like us, and they are in good reach for our Numidian cavalry as well as our fleet.

Based on this I move we nominate the following tech strategy to position us towards India.

Pottery-Sailing-Writing-Math-Hunting-Animal Husbandry-Currency-Iron Working

We need to know asap if we have access to spearmen, axemen and swordsmen or not, we may need to compensate with archers worst case scenario (Archery after Hunting, need be), as well as access to our very UU, the Numidian Cavalry.

We still need to enforce our land rights in this star-shaped continent set-up, so going towards calendar and avoiding military resources I consider not wise, in line with my general view on Slavery and Rexing without balancing strategies (Stonehenge).

 

[Provolution]

Revised strategy tech.

Gentlemen I suggest we research the following: Pottery, Sailing, Hunting, Animal Husbandry, then writing and then math. The reason for this is the following, the more prereq techs we get, the cheaper the target tech becomes to research. We also need to know horses location asap.

Another aspect. We will not build library in the timespan we are talking about, and a phoney war with India allows us to pass them without allowing them to check our tech status in the diplomatic screen.

best regards
provo

 

[Earthling]

That seems a little hasty though it's not all that different of a proposal from what we've already discussed. But two things I'm guessing:
-We weren't planning to get Alphabet ourselves yet, if India won't either then there's just no trading quite right away.
-We in all likelihood don't need open borders or a phony war to sail by. We're not sailing in to pay their capital city a visit and can probably go by on the main continent coastline to the next civ anyway.

That said, I agree it would probably be better not to go for libraries quite right away, especially without slavery, and we want a first prophet just as well as a scientist. I'll try to be flexible and getting Animal Husbandry before Math or vice versa probably won't be too much of a difference in the long run. We'll just really have to recognize what we could get in trade and how to get things going. If we have contact with a third civ, who isn't close to writing or something for instance, it's easier for us to get Writing => tech after writing and have them get basic/backfill techs or other paths like monary or iron working.

Anyway, most interestingly for players who haven't noted - figure might as well be here besides bumping turn discussion:

Our workboats did *NOT* actually discover Indian territory this turn, still out of reach across the sea. Maybe they haven't hit 100 culture yet, if they do it should be next turn and that would probably do it. But with that said and the current turn timer, I'm happy if we want to turnplay our moves on the next turn too - just the workboats and the worker on a cottage now I think, city is already set. We do want to get the diplo messages ready and I think most of us are okay to go, so moving the workboats again and "official" contact is all right if we can get it.

 

[Provolution]

Point is, there is a rebate for researching writing, when all prereqs are covered, so its a way to save bulbs and research time, generally.

 

[Earthling]

Yeah, I actually agree you are right there, pointing out that if we aren't likely to build libraries - and we aren't in the near/short term, then Animal Husbandry before both writing and thus before Math/Alpha/anything else is better than just writing first (and Hunting before AH is fine). Still I'd make this an informal poll or perhaps an official one if we're going to need to poll overall diplomacy - I would be happy either way. But Writing => something after Writing is undoubtedly our fastest trade/higher tier technology route, anyway we can see what everyone feels, I don't want to jump to any conclusions as we're still feeling out important things short term, and again I want to be flexible.

 

[Provolution]

Sure thing, we can poll if we want to map horses earlier as well as getting the rebate handled, or forfeiting the same tech rebate.

 

[Earthling]

A poll is fine and of course everyone should chip in, I just think being aware of opportunity cost/going out of the way is something. We're surely not going to tech Priesthood right before writing just because of the bonus there too, certainly some other team probably already techs Priesthood and we trade eventually, and we have no use for it right now/not planning on Oracle. I'm not trying to put it in black and white terms though because I could see doing Animal Husbandry being surely all right, especially if other teams don't want to trade. I know there will always be different views and if the team feels whichever way I am happy to ask. If India/the next team we meet are going to tech Alphabet and want us to tech something worthy of trade we're not getting that by backfilling techs, and would be in a stronger position going straight through Writing => major techs after writing. If they don't want to trade/we run into other circumstances soon, then sure, we don't have to prioritize that, but I think we all knew this general situation was coming.

(I'd be willing to go back and get iron too if that becomes necessary, again if diplomacy/trade relations are not going well. We don't see any other horses/animals nearby and if they don't pop up Iron is also a good investment, I agree. But I do want to be optimistic and hope we rather get some killer deals.)

I'm just going to put down a slight preference for Writing => Math first now but I am open to changing my mind and Hunting => AH, which I know aren't really too expensive, is a fine alternative.

 

[Provolution]

I really think we should backfill hunting and animal husbandry, in order to get cheaper writing. I rather see the horsies first, as we are not building library any time soon.

 

[Arakhor]

Backfilling is always a good idea. I concur.

 

[Earthling]

Well, if that's two in favor and I'm on the line, I guess we can change plans to that. Everybody ok with just discussing this here - new threads and polls are always fine by me in a setting like this, but if there is agreement and we have a smallish team that's fine.

Again I agree that there's no point getting writing specifically first - Writing is only to unlock the techs after writing, we're not scheduled to build libraries soon. So putting that off for AH and possibly Iron Working, if horses don't show up, is possible.

Still getting Sailing right now though? And anyone else welcome to speak up, for now I'd say I'll concede to this being the new plan for my own input.

 

[cav scout]

I'm still leaning towards Writing. Lets get started on Sailing now and make our final decision a few turns before it's finished.

 

[RegentMan]

I'd like to see sailing for the next tech. As far as writing goes, how soon are we going for mathematics? If right away, then I'd rather go for writing --> mathematics.

 

[Provolution]

We do not have enough health resources, 2 of the present health points in the capital is derived from 4 forests within the BFC. If we chop one forest, we lose one health. I consider the stampede for writing-mathematics as rash and ill-advised, and hunting-Animal husbandry a much better choice in terms of making writing cheaper, as well as making sure we identify horses (and possibly build hunting camps later.).

 

[TyBoy]

I expect the chopping to be used more in our next two cities rather than the capital. There are enough unforested tiles around the capital that we can work them and only chop if we need the hammers to rush something important.

I disagree about filling out hunting and animal husbandry. I can see a significant benefit to getting to math and possibly calendar ASAP. The benefit for picking up hunting and AH looks very small for the number of beakers involved and not worth delaying more beneficial techs. We're a long ways from needing a hunting camp. I don't think we see a single hunting resource sofar and we've got a good idea about our next 4-5 city locations. I also think it is likely that we will encounter civs who had AH resources in their capitals and thus that tech will be available for trade.

We will be encountering another civ before we finish sailing though. There is a significant chance that any tech plan we come up with before that encounter will be replaced anyway.

 

[Provolution]

1. I realized we need one more health in the capital to get equilibrium with the happiness cap towards health. Best way to do this is to build a granary, which will help boost the settler production and make slavery a better target civic.

2. On a closer look, we should head straight for iron working after sailing, then head for writing and math (we need iron working and/or animal h prior to the math gambit, just in order to make sure we dont do "wrong" land improvements like cottages or leaving out good mines as we cant see these resources. We sure need better chopping results for the western cities.

Calendar may be better to target with this strategy, as we may need it, but not as fast as some here think. I would not like calendar before iron working at all.

 

[TyBoy]

For anyone to attack us in this very early stage requires that they both
Build one 60 hammer galley for every 2 ~35 hammer units they send, or pay roughly a double hammer cost for the units they are attacking with.
and
Travel for about 15 turns to get to us, which we'll see coming with our scout boats.

With the map as it is requiring sea invasions and little chance of surprise any early attacks would be a huge waste on the part of the attacker. I think ancient and classical age units will only play a token role in this game with some possible skirmishing on the main continent. I actually think we could see the attack coming, research IW and build axes in time to defeat an early attack. Plus they'd have to atleast risk one of their galleys in an unfavorable attack on our galley. I just don't see the need to prioritize it.

Right now our capital will be fine on health at the happiness cap, even if it has to pay a 1 food penalty for being unhealthy by one.