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Strategy for Science Victory in 140 Turns or less

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by civtrader6, Oct 15, 2017.

  1. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    Hi all,
    with a little bit of practice and lots of forward planning, getting a science victory in 150-160 turns is easily doable, even with weaker civs across all difficulties (including France and Harald, on deity difficulty).

    However, at least for me, pushing the victory to 140 turns or below seems to be daunting and situational. So far, I've developed one strategy with Gilgamesh that works on lower difficulties (Prince Turn 138 and Emperor Turn 140). Sadly, this one is not likely to work on higher difficulties.

    So my question would be - is there any other civ that can pull a science victory in 140 turns or less? What would be a good strategy? Any ideas?

    What sets Gilgamesh apart from other civ's is the unique ability to get inspirations/eureka's from barb camps. On a large map, this easily translates into a number of inspirations that would otherwise not be possible (e.g. in my last game, urbanization and humanism and countless others) when going for a quick SV. This saves a number of turns.
    Also, other civ's require you to build 2 armies, while Sumeria allows you to upgrade warcarts into knights (I always purchase a battering ram too).

    Even then, it's not enough. To shave these 10-15 turns and get your victory to T140 and under you also need:
    * 2-3 scientific city states (2 is enough with religion).
    * mid-early religion (see below) (also, this is why this strategy is not suitable for deity).
    * neighbour with strong culture (e.g. gorgo or hojo - to capture theater squares and great works of writing) or Kumasi (to reach Suffrage/Democracy before turn 140).
    Without the above, or with any other civ, a slightly adapted version of the strategy below regulary nets T150-T160 science victory on all difficulties.

    Gilgamesh Fast Science Victory - General Strategy

    Early Civics strategy and build order:
    All early civics need to be boosted for quick Classical Republic (less than 50 turns).
    Start with a builder/scout or scout/builder (depending on available tiles and how many techs are needed), get inspiration for Craftmanship.
    Next make a settler. Finish researching Craftsmanship exactly on the turn the settler is done. Insert Agoge (for 50% military units). Build 3x slingers and 1 or 2 warriors.
    Next start researching Military Tradition. At this point you are likely to get a boost. Leave it at one turn before completion and finish only when you are done making slingers/warriors.
    Then immediately switch to Maneuver (50% cavalry) and start producing warcarts. (I do it exclusively in the capital, 6-8 max).
    Find a target neighbour civ or city state. At turn 30+ they should have a holy site finished. Conquer, get a boost for State workforce.

    As soon as possible, boost and research Early Empire for Colonisation (50% settlers). Ideally, your second and third/fourth city (the one's you conquered) should now start making settlers. The capital will join as soon as the military is done.

    If possible settle the (first or) second city on a luxury and improve at least one luxury. Sell luxuries for lump gold. Use money to buy one or two builders. Chop to speed up settlers. Make at least 8 settlers.

    Once Political Philosophy is done, with Gilgamesh you can go for Classical Republic (at this point you do not need the military slot - warcarts do not have upkeep, by now you should have already built all the military you will need for the rest of the game, so even if you've upgraded the slingers to archers -3 gold is ok) (note however, the maybe you want to get Oligarchy for a few turns if you haven't finished the military or you face a tough war).
    Preferred policies will be Urban Planning (+1 production), 30% for builders and 50% for settlers (for some time).

    Early Mid-Game Civics Strategy
    You need to reach Merchant republic as fast as possible. Normally that means, hard-researching Games and Recreations. Make sure to boost Medival Fairies (4 trade routes - see note on districts), Recorded History (2 campus districts), Feudalism (I do this exclusively through capturing cities with farms, and maybe one of my own in capital).
    If you're lucky you will boost either the Military Tactics (by capturing an Encampment or through barb camps - building an encampment is a no-go for T140, but great for regular T150-160 victories) and Defensive Tactics (barb camp or city state declaring or you, or perhaps even an enemy civ).

    Unless lucky with goody huts, be ready to hard-research Civil Service and Exploration.

    Mid-Late Game Civics Strategy:
    Again, unless lucky with goody huts, normally I do not boost Humanism, Diplomatic Service, Urbanization and Suffrage. All others will get a boost.
    (Make sure to build 2 markets for Guilds, you will definitely get a Great Merchant for Mercantilism, and 3 Great People in time for Enlightenment. Civil Engineering is likely to be boosted through capture (you could build a harbour, capture a theater square etc). On lower difficulties boost for Nationalism through declaring a war with casus-belli should be possible etc.
    Before going for suffrage, i also get Collonialism for envoys.

    DISTRICTS:
    Except for the first (or first two) all other cities should start by making a monument.
    Pre-place (but do not build districts). Normally, first 2 cities can pre-place a campus (and later commercial hubs). The next 2 commercial hubs.
    Place the districts as soon as possible. Took me a long long time to realise that saving production (through lower district costs is much much better than chasing (very often super weak (like +1 or +2) adjacency.

    WONDERS
    One central city should start with a Entertainment district for Colosseum. Note that this city does not even have to have fresh water, just needs a few good tiles to chop, so that you can put the Colosseum up as soon as you get Feudalism.
    If possible and still available, one city should be able to chop Pyramids (can be done with 2-3 chops, once you get feudalism). Needless to say, save all one charge workers.
    For late game you will also need Big Ben. You need a dedicated city that will get a bank and start building Big Ben around Turn 100+ or so.
    (Note: normally for T150-160 SV, going for great zimbabve is a good option, however, I haven't tried it with Gilgamesh so as not to delay the spaceport).

    General TECH Strategy:
    Should be straightforward and consistent with all other advice around. Most, but not all early techs will get a boost (don't build that aquaduct). I personally never build walls either. Make sure to time Stirups with Feudalism.
    After that move to the top of the tree. Essentially you need to balance researching toward Space Port tech and Big Ben. Ideally, you should hit Big Ben (Economics) at around T100 and Space Port at T100 at the latest.
    To do this, you must rely on Great Scientists (which will boost pretty much all tech in the medieval and renesaince era's). Do not spend a great scientist until you boost what you can (e.g. build a niter mine for rifling first) etc.
    Normally, once I get back to researching castles etc it only takes 1 turn per boosted tech.
    After you hit the spaceport tech, try saving some industrial/modern era techs for boosts, as at this point the great scientists start coming too late.

    Builders/Districts Strategy
    Make sure to have a huge wave of builders for feudalism. New cities should start making a monument, but if necessary stop making the monuments and switch to builders. Districts should wait until feudalism. Once you've got feudalism start chopping districts. In each city, if its not already finished, chop the monument first. Then chop 3 CD and only then chop campuses.
    Most cities do not need to grow past 4 pop. Granary only in capital and eventually the Big Ben City.
    Industrial zone in capital (maybe, but not necessarily, also big ben city).
    You will have the time to finish a workshop and a factory in the capital just before you start with Space Port.
    Plan to also chop (or partly use overflow for 3 extra traders). Build 2 markets (one in Big Ben city).
    In general, except for a few select cities, I rarely improve tiles. In some cities, I may build a mine or two
    Farms? Never. Well, actually, there may be a farm in the capital for Craftsmanship and maybe later (T100+) build 2-4 farms in the capital for extra housing. Otherwise, never.
    Keep chopping traders (e.g. ideally in cities that already have 2 districts and and forest/stone/deer)

    At around civil engineering you should have a second wave of builders (on some maps, I've settled a late city in the middle of the woods - just for the purpose of chopping 6+ builders and nothing else).

    WAR
    After starting war at around T30, I keep warring up until T100 or so. Later, only if I want to stop an annoying religion or hit a boost.
    Mercenaries straight after feudalism (maybe squeeze recorded history first). With the above focus on CD, your treasury will fill up suddenly (in 5-10 turns) to upgrade warcarts into knights.

    RELIGION/PANTHEON
    Most of the advice above (but not all) applies to regular T150-160 SV strategy. But so far, the only way I have found to pull the victory to T140 and below is rather religion.
    Use captured holy sites to get a religion (2nd or 3rd). Go for Papal Primacy (50% from city states) and Jesuit Education (Purchase theater square buildings with faith). You may need to chop a holy site project or faith/gold purchase a prophet. Be careful. Convert your cities while small. Start converting city states first. Be ready to declare war to crush enemy missionaries.
    (In one game I was able to snatch papal primacy (and convert city states) but China took Jesuit Education - so I had to spread their religion through my cities for JE, thats ok too, but that was T143 victory).

    Pantheon: with Gilgamesh you are likely to be able to hit Goddess of the Harvest. All the chopping will allow you to (through time) purchase a library and university in every city.

    SPACE
    The usual. Capital must have at least 4 tiles to chop for all space-projects in one turn. Ideally, there should be at least 2 more to speed up the space-port. Same with big-ben city. Only these two cities get internal trade routes (1 to 3). All other trade routes go to merchant city states.
    You will need at least 20+k saved before T140, cause you will have to buy at least 6-8 great scientists in 1-2 turns on lower difficulties.

    Hope this helps. Let me know if I've forgot something. And, let me know if you have any suggestions as to how to do this with another civ.

    Save:
    I'm attaching a fun save on emperor difficulty (T140 SV) if you want to study/try for yourself.
    (Note: I've the last civ captured was done for the purpose of boosting civil engineering and getting 2 city-state quests, didn't really need it otherwise).
    You may also want to check-out GoTM10 (T138 SV on Prince).
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  2. Bad_Viceroy

    Bad_Viceroy Chieftain

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    This whole post makes me cry Still working on getting below 200! Love the strategy though.
     
  3. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    A fantastic guide.

    I think you missed the Monarchy flow, which is to say, use the 150% Monarchy ancient walls overflow to chop and finish districts. You spend 33 prod on that wall, but you can get a 90 prod chop amplified to 225 if you chop at the last turn of the wall, not sure if this one works for you, since this costs some culture to reach Monarchy and you have to finish that chop before Civil Engineering.


    Personally I would like to see if your strategy applies for other Civs, such as Gorgo(who is better at approaching Globalization, which give a lot of extra sciences) at Gotm 25.
     
  4. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    This guide is extremely fantastic and I treat it as the best guide of Civ6 I've ever seen.
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    @civtrader6 awesome, I still consider myself a noob at SV and this is good info solidifying snippets from elsewhere.
    What would you consider an acceptable production output for your science city?
    Would the strategy change at all if there was no science CS? ( just delays finish, more cities?)
     
  6. slowcar

    slowcar stratege

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    As the projects themselves are basically "built" by using/abusing the great scientists with the chop in between to trigger completion you need production only to build the space district - and usually there is enough time for that as science is the limitating factor.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So I guess judging by this 50-80 prod seems optimal maybe less with chopping

    upload_2017-10-19_13-50-26.png
     
  8. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    Spaceport is always built by chopping instead of hard-producing. You in fact don't need prod at all, you just need to find a place with as many trees are possible to build a city.
     
  9. chazzycat

    chazzycat Chieftain

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    what game speed is this
     
  10. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    @Victoria and @Lily_Lancer, thanks a lot for your feedback. Means a lot when it comes from devoted players.

    @Victoria
    Not sure its possible to go below 150 without Science city states (or even T150-T160 for that matter, except maybe when playing Aztecs with endless wars and using builders to finish districts all around).
    With this said however, it is desirable but not really necessary to have the science CS nearby, and its ok not to get suzerainship before T80.

    As for the Spaceport production, I personally tend to build the spaceport in the capital whenever possible. For T150-160 victories, spaceport in the Great Zimbabve city is also good. Never tried to risk and wholly chop the spaceport.
    I can't remember the last time when my capital had over 50-60 production. This is mostly because I abuse it to pump out extra settlers, so I'm often struggling to put it at 7 pop for a cheap IZ. Once the spaceport is in the works, capital is usually at 8-9 pop (up to 12 max recently) with heavy production focus. I also tend to build lumber-mills in the capital and then dismantle the mills to chop the space projects. Getting lucky and picking up Crassius Great Merchant can often help a lot.

    @Lily_Lancer,
    I was able to push a deity game with Gorgo to T146 finish (pre-nubia patch, so cheaper settlers but no envoys for theater squares) and barely scraped to reach Suffrage at around T140 or so, and sadly didn't build a single theater square.
    I'm going to give the GoTM25 a try. With Gorgo's focus on culture it may be possible to push for Monarchy without causing delays. Let's see.
    As getting Goddess of the Harvest is very situational, I'm also interested to see whether the monarchy bonus can compensate for Jezuit Education.



    @chazzycat
    Standard speed.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Thanks chaps, especially @civtrader6 for clarifying well. I know what you mean @Lily_Lancer but most places with lots of trees I find are jungle. I guess they will do. So arguably you could have a spaceport in a size 4 city with loads of trees. That gives a lot more flexibility.
     
  12. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    Also you may be missing Eiffel Tower and Neighborhood gold, this is sure to provide huge amount of instant gold. (For Eiffel Tower, you just find a place with trees and chop it out)
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I like the new Pantheon, 1st district in a city gets 25% production. You could found a city with no districts for the spaceport.... also 25% off your campuses but is it better than the fast culture ones?
     
  14. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    I think if you cannot get Goddess of Harvest or God of Forge this one is very interesting.
     
  15. Bad_Viceroy

    Bad_Viceroy Chieftain

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    Question about starts: I rarely have enough wood (there I said it) to chop the whole or even most of the spaceport in my cap, or anywhere else practical, do you guys restart until you have lots of hills AND wood (sorry)
     
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  16. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Chieftain

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    There shall be a place in the whole map that has enough woods, since you always have to conquer the whole map.
     
  17. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    GoTM25 going interesting so far. I'm experimenting with the walls. With Gorgo - culture-wise going into monarchy does not seem to be a problem, but I did screw up the wall timings a bit. Don't want to post any spoiler yet, but since I've devastated my capital to secure an early horse rush - it seems that another city will be building the spaceport.
     
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  18. Eyswein

    Eyswein Chieftain

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    This is an awesome thread. Thanks to all for the insanely awesome strategy tips!

    Already played 6otM 25, but plan to replay to learn how to play SV better. Wall chops, neighborhood gold great ideas. I've done both, but never part of a civ wide plan. From reading this I see that I use my builders inefficiently. Also realizing divine spark isn't favored (normally use God of the Forge for warmongering, but that didn't seem as useful for SV).

    Do you ever spend gold on libraries/universities or is that better saved for other items?
    Can you double chop with one turn left on a wall (or other +% item) or is just the first chop counted for the +150% bonus if you are switching to something like a district?
     
  19. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    UPDATE: Strategy for Science Victory
    GORGO, IMMORTAL, 141 Turns

    Game background: Map played is based on GotM25. Immortal difficulty.
    The map can be found here: GoTM25 Announcement - Gorgo Immortal Turn 1
    Also check out the Opening actions/After actions threads for saves (I will post saves/writeups at T70 and T140).
    Since its GoTM, perhaps try for yourself first before reading the rest.
    Moderator Action: I’ve spoilered the remainder, so 6oTM25 details are not revealed. Browd
    Spoiler :


    GORGO - General info/choice of approach:
    Warrior revealed 2 horses on the early. Hence, decided to go for (risky but possible) horseman rush on Immortal.
    The map has only one scientific city state. To push for a quick science victory then would require to make full use of Gorgo's abilities:
    * Early culture from kills (later not so relevant) - rely on early barbs and close neighbours to get quick Political Philosophy.
    * Cheap theater square districts that provide good adjacency bonus and free envoys (strong focus on culture - possible to reach globalization before turn 130).
    * Extra wildcard policy (can secure the classical great general, making horseman relevant even up to turn 100 at immortal difficulty).

    Early Civics/Build Order/Differences from Gilgamesh Strategy
    Again, all early civics need to be boosted. Need to be careful here as Gorgo gets culture from kills. Make sure to switch out of any civic/tech that did not get a boost and switch into a civic/tech that did. Essentially, the same advice from the above thread for Gilgamesh still applies. Difference is however, that your army comes out a bit later (but moves faster).
    Start with a builder (researching mining/animal husbandry) to get the Craftsmanship boost. Ignore early barb camp and live through a barb swarm with one warrior (adrenaline) while building settler next. (Scout from goody hut immensely helped, otherwise would have built one).

    Build 3 slingers. Survive barbs. Purchase a builder. Note: At this point its obvious that capital will lack production/chops for a spaceport, but has great early production. Purchased a builder & decided to chop all tiles early to quickly build horse army (7 horses total). Horses are expensive, first neighbour didn't build a district, close city states more useful if not captured. Decide to hard build campus in the capital (departure from usual strategy, but took only few turns). No money to upgrade slingers to archers though.
    With first few horses up, start warring against the closest neighbour.

    Early tech research:
    Belining into horses (Mining, 1/2 Archery, Masonry (essential for battering rams)), cheap campus (Pottery, Writting), finish horses, then (still cheap) commercial hubs.
    Early expansion:
    As above. Try to build a minimum of 8 settlers. Selectively chop to speed up. Act fast - best to have all settlers out by T70.

    Early Builders/Districts/Walls overflow
    Gorgo can generate huge amounts of culture, gets to build acropolis (half price) and further benefits from great works of writing.
    Mix up early placements of districts (Again, 4 commercial hubs first) + Mix of Campuses/Theatre squares (depending on how much tiles each city has for chopping etc).
    Again, do not build districts until after feudalism.
    Thanks to @Lily_Lancer advice, I've went for Monarchy (doable with gorgo) right after Feudalism. At this point, huge wave of builders (squeeze recorded history etc to time builders to 1 turn in almost all cities) was combined with 100% production bonus on defensive buildings and monarchy's bonus of 50% production on Ancient Walls. Wait till walls are at one turn. Chop. Finish first district in one turn (!). Wherever possible, chop 2nd district first and only then libraries/universities.
    Chop traders in cities with lots of woods etc.

    Religion/Pantheon
    To make the most of Gorgo's ability (and because Godess of the Harvest was taken) choose Divine Spark. This will translate into a seriesof great works of writing/great artists (Otherwise, I'm not a fan of Divine Spark (it does give a great advantage early on, but not so much later)...
    Go for religion with captured holy sites (still doable on immortal). Focus on Papal Primacy.

    Mid/Late Game Civics/Techs
    Despite Gorgo's strong focus on culture, to reach Globalisation properly it is necessary to hit some of the key boosts on the way. Some tips are as follows:
    * Plan to build 1 archeological museum (in a city that can chop an archeologist (which also boosts Combustion, makes 'artifacts' scientist useful (finally)) and 2 art museums otherwise.
    * As Gorgo can reach Suffrage much earlier than other civs you can get by with less commercial districts than usual.
    * Have a builder ready and be on the lookout for the '3 special' boost mines (niter, coal, aluminum).
    * To make best use of Renaissance era great scientists make sure to first boost Mass Production (lumber mill), Astronomy (university next to a mountain), Banking (guilds civic), Printing (2nd university), Metal Casting (2 crossbowman), before spending the charge.
    * Base 3-4 international trade routes from your Bigben and Spaceport city. Once you hit Globalization this will add +20 production. This also means that you can start building Big Ben and Spaceport a bit later than usual. This also allows you to properly time tech and civic trees (specifically - make sure to finish Radio in time for Mass Media).
    * If present, make Vilnius useful (e.g. enter the information era using the tech tree (for example, hard researching Satellites straight after rocketry). This will have a 50% chance of boosting Globalisation (Saves 3-4 turns).
    * Plan to build an Aerodrome district ( to boost Rapid deployment - as you will get a discount there, one Forrest and one jungle is enough).
    * Focus on culture (+1 culture for each district, +1 culture +1 science from trade routes, 100% theatre square adjacency bonus) in combination with science (100% adjacency + 100% science from campus district buildings) as opposed to gold.
    * Toward the end-game start selling of your great works/relics.
    * On fractal maps (like this one), once all wars are done you can scatter a few horses around in search for goody huts (late game this will translate in at least 2-3 boosts/builders etc).


    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2017
  20. civtrader6

    civtrader6 Chieftain

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    @Eyswein, in relation to the use of gold for SV in the T140-T160 range.
    Gold is precious. My personal approach is as follows:
    * Early game:
    Military: Save a bit of gold to upgrade the slingers. Depending on the situation ranging from none (like the GotM25) to around ~200+ for 5 or so archers.
    Builders/Monuments: Depending on the flow and neighbouring civs - I will probably buy at least one builder to speed up early settlers. Sometimes when gold is abundant and culture is lacking I may purchase a monument.
    Early tiles: Rather than the monument however, sometimes its best to get some good tiles for the capital and second city. Especially if the tiles can speed things up significantly. Note, good tiles does not include spending money in order to get +1 (or even +2) science adjacency bonus etc but rather a luxury or a strong production tile or an essential chop.
    * Early-mid game:
    Military: 260 gold for a battering ram is a must for me. If going chariots to knights route then need few hundred gold for upgrade. With the above strategy and focus on CD your treasury can fill up quickly for a timely upgrade.
    Builders: Despite having a huge wave of builders for feudalism, some late/distant cities may benefit from purchasing a dedicated builder (usually reserved for special cities, such as those making pyramids or Colosseum or traders etc.
    Tiles: At this point, there will definitely be a few tiles across the map that will need to be purchased to properly chop stuff in weaker cities.
    * End-game
    Builders: Sometimes a builder or two may be necessary somewhere (especially if planning to chop a bunch of builders in a dedicated city, or for example chopping a theatre square in a city to get the civil engineering boost (which then yields 450+ culture)).

    Great Scientists:
    This is the toughest part. Depending on the difficulty, the era-progress of other civs and the actual victory finish time, the number of great scientists that may need to be purchased may vary greatly.
    Its worst on lower difficulties, where sometimes you need around 30-35.000 (before doubling the treasury with Big Ben). On immortal its much better and usually 20-25.000 will get you all the great scientists, while on deity, especially if there are more civs focusing on science you may get by with only 15-20.000 saved.
    Getting this amount may be tricky as well. On lower difficulties, you cannot rely on other civs and most will not have any or very little gold. On higher difficulties (assuming you stopped warring before meeting all the civs) then there is a chance you will have another civ or two willing to trade for very high amounts of gold which helps things greatly. Chopping gold resources is also a must (on a good map, there may be 4-5 crabs, each x400+ gold, and a copper or two for same).

    Long story short - you need to create a large gold economy to purchase the great scientists. For me then, gold is usually a bigger bottleneck than science. It is much more relaxed with Great Zimbabve (but I don't think that GZ is a viable option for sub T150 victories). So normally, despite having more and more gold from T80 onwards, I am very reluctant to spend any without a convincing reason.

    So, based on my experience: spending money on universities and libraries is not optimal and should (almost never) be done. Chopping is just much better. If a city can't reasonably chop/build a university in time (e.g. at least 10 turns before the planned victory time) call it a day and simply don't develop the city anymore. Same things with improvements, e.g. mines etc. You want a couple of core cities that are strong in production, in all others its likely a builder charge could bring more value through chops than through a mine (exceptions are resources you need or will be able to sell).

    So what else does the money get spent on? Depends on the map, difficulty, your gold economy and science output. In some cases, its justifiable spending gold to secure certain boosts that would otherwise be hard to get and that ultimately save significant amounts/turns of science or culture.
    One example (there are others): purchase an archeologist in case you are not able to chop one. The archeologist will then bring an eureka for Combustion (600+ science) and if you use Mary Leaky additional 1050 science. Compare this to the best scenario of purchasing a university at turn 80 (if there's even any gold to do that, which is kind of unlikely). The university will then yield, lets say 70 turns x 4 production, out of which, lets say half will be doubled after Enlightenment, which comes up to ~420 at best...
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
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