Strategy Shift

[Cyc]

We seem to have shifted from our Military strategy in the area of Production. Currently, we have a granary in Valhalla's build queue and a temple in Bavaria's build queue. We seem to have moved towards a "Build the Infrastructure" stance or strategy. Is this the will of the people? Do we need a granary in Valhalla yet? Do we need a temple in Bavaria yet? Maybe just producing a much needed worker will keep our Capital at a manageable population. Maybe we should produce a few more settlers before a granary in Valhalla, to try and keep up with the rapid expansion of our nieghbors. But maybe a temple and a granary are just what we need. What do you think?

 

[disorganizer]

i think both are propably not needed. we should keep producing workers and settlers in valhalla and military in bavaria.
for the 3rd city we should discuss but maybe a military+worker mix will also be good there (mil until pop gets too high and then worker)

 

[donsig]

We should build a worker in Valhalla now. If we switch the laborer to the cow tile we can produce a worker in five turns which would coincide with Valhalla's growth in five turns. We have only one worker now and tha
t one should be roading to the spice for Bavaria's borders will expand in less than 20 turns. We need this second worker to improve the tiles around Valhalla. A granary could be built after the worker.

As for a temple in Bavaria, I say not yet. We'd be better off producing warriors after our archer force is complete. We have about 94 gold now and can reap another 140 gold by selling alphabet. With our surplus of 4 gpt we'd have enough gold to upgrade warriors to swordsmen in 22 turns. We could also finish our archers and recuit 8 warriors within those 22 turns. If we stop building the road to the new city and build a barracks there we could then upgrade the warriors there. In about 25 turns we'd have a force of 8 vet swordmen to follow in our archers' wake.

I'm in favor of sticking with our original plan of early aggression.

 

[disorganizer]

I second donsig. Completely. As private citizen and as lord mayor of bavaria!

A second discussion on that topic takes place in the province.

I posted there to continue this urgent issue in here.

 

[Shaitan]

I third donsig's analysis. A sword rush following directly on the heels of the archer assault is a massive advantage.

 

[Padma]

Our original plan was early aggression, both to cripple our likely early enemies and to gain "lebensraum" for ourselves. To meet that strategy, donsig's plan is the best.

 

[Cyc]

I agree, an excellent plan, but can we wait 3 turn chats to deploy our Swordsmen? 25 turns waiting on a barracks is a long time to wait. If we build the road to Morgana, complete our Archer queue and build a warrior in Bavaria while we wait the 6 turns for the road to be completed, Then build 3 Swordsman in the remaining 19 turns of barracks building in Morgana, we would have 4 warriors to upgrade to vet Swordsman plus the 3 vet swordsman from Bavaria equaling 7 vets, plus we would have two vet producing barracks. Either way we go, we will still have to put a worker in the queue to stop the growth of Bavaria. This way is cheaper, as we will be doing less upgrades.

So with your plan Donsig, in 25 turns we would have 8 vet warriors, one vet Swordsman producing city (as we would still need to use six turns to complete a road to Morgana), and very little gold because we spent it all on upgrading warriors to Swordsman.

Keeping it the way it is now (minus the Temple in Bavaria), we could have 7 vet Swordsman, at least 80g more, and two vet Swordsman producing cities. I say finish the road to Morgana. The upgrade path will hinder us more than help us.

But I would like to see the Temple taken out of the queue. And I would like to produce another settler before the granary in Valhalla.

 

[Shaitan]

Cyc, with your suggestion we would be without our archer assault force.

 

[Octavian X]

I think, for now, a granery is needed in Valhalla. We shouldn't focus solely on military units. Settler production should also be high up on our list, and a granery will help facilitate this.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Octavian X
I think, for now, a granery is needed in Valhalla. We shouldn't focus solely on military units. Settler production should also be high up on our list, and a granery will help facilitate this.

I don't think anyone has proposed using Valhalla for recruiting military units. I have proposed working the cow tile in Valhalla and recruiting a worker now. The worker would be done in five turns and the city would grow in five turns - the perfect opportunity to build a much needed worker to improve the area around Valhalla. After the worker we could build granary/settler or the other way around. I think we all see Valhalla as our settler factory right now.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

hear hear, donsig!
you should run for domestic...

 

[Eklektikos]

Something I'm finding quite worrying about Bavaria's queue is the fact that it appears to be missing the 5th archer. I believe the original plan was to build 5-6 of them...

 

[donsig]

from Die Fanatischen Zeiten #8 - reprinted with permission from the publisher

Our worker is currently constructing a road in the hills that will connect our planned city to our already established cities. The road will be complete in 6 turns. There have been calls for this road to not be built yet. If the road is completed then all our cities will have access to iron and we will not be able to recruit warriors any more. We would thus be unable to produce vet warriors in Bavaria @ 10 shields, which could subsequently be upgraded in the new city for 40 gold each. We are in a position to build a barracks in the new city, finish our archers in Bavaria, build 8 warriors in Bavaria and then upgrade them in the new city within 25 turns. This force of 8 vet swordsmen could then follow up on the expected successes of our archer strike force.

In order to get this force of swordsmen in place, a few things must happen. We need a total of 320 gold in 25 turns. We have 94 and are making 4 gpt. If we refrain from spending, this gives 194 gold. We can sell alphabet to the Japanese for 80 gold and to the Russians for 60 gold. That brings our total to 334 gold, which reaches our goal in time. England and India already have the alphabet and if we do not sell immediately we run the risk of gaining nothing from these techs. It should be remembered that last turn we could have sold iron working to the Japanese for 81 gold but they somehow acquired the tech elsewhere.

Our build queues would also have to be adjusted. Bavaria is currently set to build a temple after completing our final archer. In order to get our force of 8 swords we?d have to change the queue from temple to 8 warriors. We?d also have to stop building the road to the new iron city. Our worker would be better employed in building a road to the spice since Bavaria?s borders will expand in 18 turns. Since our lone worker has this project we should be building a second worker in Valhalla, which is currently set to construct a granary. By working the cow tile rather than the mined grassland Valhalla can recruit a worker in 5 turns, the same amount of time it will take the city to grow. This worker could then improve the tiles around Valhalla as needed while the granary is being built.

 

[donsig]

Our military leader has reminded us that we need 5 or 6 archers instead of 4. I think we also planned to have a spear escort.

Archer #3 will be ready in 2 turns. If we work another forest tile instead of the lake we can make two more archers in 6 turns. So in 8 turns we'll have five archers. The spear will have to come from the Bavaria or Valhalla garrison. We have a warrior near Valhalla that can replace the spear garrison.

While that is happening, we can found Morgana (2 turns) and begin the barracks. I'm not sure if the city tile itself will produce one or two shields (it will be on an iron hill). But it seems we'll have to use the Bavarian game tile for Morgana which gives 2 s/t for a total of 3 or 4 s/t. Taking the lower value, the barracks will be done in 7 turns - the turn after our archers set out. Morgana will be ungarrisoned so it should probably make a spear (7 turns). By the time the spear is done Bavaria will have made 4 warriors.

We would be 16 turns from now. The archers would have been travelling for 8 turns and would still be a few tiles away from the Aztecs. Bavaria could continue to make warriors every two turns as long as we have gold to upgrade them. Once out of gold we could connect Morgana to Bavaria by road. We'd then have two cities that could make vet swords if needed. Valhalla is not involved and could continue building settlers.

We would have to raise the lux rate to 20% to keep Bavaria quiet once we turn the game tile over to Morgana. This could be lowered once we get some grasslands around Bavaria improved. (Another reason to build a second worker in Valhall now.)

please remember that selling the alphabet to both Russia and Japan is an integral part of this plan at these trades would yield 140 gold - enough for three and a half warrior upgrades.

 

[Cyc]

Quoting Shaitan:
Cyc, with your suggestion we would be without our archer assault force.

No, Shaitan. As I mentioned earlier we would complete the archer queue. This would give us 4 archers, only one shy of the original plan.

 

[Cyc]

With 4 Archers and the spearman from Bavaria, we have an initial strike force. Because we recalled two warriors back to Bavaria, (both would be back in time) one warrior could garrison the Capital and one could be upgraded to swordsman and join the attack force. That's 4 Archers escorted by a spear with a sword 1 following one turn behind. Then Bavaria can produce a worker followed by Swords. Worker in 2, Swords in 6. Morgana can still build it barracks while we have the attack force in route and more swords being built. Plus we didn't spend all our gold on upgrades.

 

[donsig]

Cyc, why do you want to save the gold? You can't even use it to buy a subscription to DFZ! By selling alphabet we raise 142 gold. With 18 more from the treasury we can upgrade 4 warriors and save many turns over producing 4 swords. Using all our treasury and earnings for the next 20 turns gets us 8 swords twice as fast as building them from scratch.

Are you sure our warriors have been recalled? There are two very far east.

 

[Cyc]

OK, let me explain this a little better than I have, then I'll shut up. The main difference between your plan and my plan is that at turn #20 you will have 4 vet archers and a vet spearman on the way to Azteca, and 5 warriors made and waiting to be upgraded to swordsmen for a cost of 200g, and...

I will have 4 vet Swordsmen, 4 vet Archers, and a vet Spear on the tile in between the horse and the cattle, with another vet Swordsman 2 tiles South of Bavaria. Besides that, If I hadn't given strategic technology to my enemies, I would have 60g. If I had sold those secrets to the enemy, I would have 200g.

At turn #20 we would both be required to build another worker.

Here's how it would work - Valhalla builds a Spearman to start with. When that's done it goes to Bavaria and Valhalla builds a Worker or Granary, whatever.The Warrior 4 tile NW of Bavaria goes to the Capital and waits for the road to be completed (6 turns). The two warriors to the East are called into Bavaria also. One will be there in 8 turns and be upgraded, the other one will be there in 12 turns and be upgraded. In the first 6 turns we have completed 2 more Archers and now start a Worker. The Worker is followed by 2 vet Swordsman. This puts us at turn #20. BTW the Archer in the far West gets sent to the horses on the first turn. The archer South of Bavaria can join it or accompany the two vet Archers, 1 vet Sword, and 1 vet Spear when they leave Bavaria and head South for Azteca on turn #7.

So, I was thinking it would be better to have our forces close to the Aztecs and two Swordsman building cities at the end of 20 turns instead of having warriors lined up at Morgana and only one city that could build a swordsman (and at what rate? ). Plus we would be broke, and our enemies would definately have our secrets.

OK, I'll shut up now...

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Cyc
OK, let me explain this a little better than I have, then I'll shut up. The main difference between your plan and my plan is that at turn #20 you will have 4 vet archers and a vet spearman on the way to Azteca, and 5 warriors made and waiting to be upgraded to swordsmen for a cost of 200g, and...
At turn #20 we would both be required to build another worker.

Actually, under my plan we'd have 6 new warriors at turn 20. If our current three are recalled we'd have 9 waiting to be upgraded at 360 gold. We'd also have 5 vet archers and a spear escort in the first force. I really wouldn't recall the two eastern warriors. I'd let them explore since Bavaria would be able to make 2 warriors in 4 turns once warrior production is underway.
Under my plan we would not have to make a worker at turn 20 because Valhalla would make a worker now - in five turns.
I do not fear selling our *secret* alphabet. We bought it from India and England has one too. If we don't sell it India or England might anyway.

 

[Cyc]

Good, start counting Donsig.