Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
Yeah I was surprised, too, and now I'm waiting for someone to scream settling in two tile gaps is an exploit and should be made impossible in the next patch
Maybe I should go trolling.......
Strategy - Victory without Temples or Cathedrals
- Thread starter WoundedKnight
- Start date
Yeah I was surprised, too, and now I'm waiting for someone to scream settling in two tile gaps is an exploit and should be made impossible in the next patch
Maybe I should go trolling.......
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
I don't say it as my point of view, I said it just as a respond to the previous post...
meldor
Deity
I would suggest reading the RBD13 SG thread.
We didn't build any temple, libraries, cathedrals or univerisities. We spaced cities 4 apart to get the culture lock without culture, and keep the people happy with only marketplaces and luxes. We used very little lux tax, mostly in the beginning. We won the game by conquest and were the tech leader for most of the game. In addition we had a tremendous income each turn.
Just goes to show you that there are a ton of ways to play the game and still win. I don't think this strat would stand a chance on deity level though.
We didn't build any temple, libraries, cathedrals or univerisities. We spaced cities 4 apart to get the culture lock without culture, and keep the people happy with only marketplaces and luxes. We used very little lux tax, mostly in the beginning. We won the game by conquest and were the tech leader for most of the game. In addition we had a tremendous income each turn.
Just goes to show you that there are a ton of ways to play the game and still win. I don't think this strat would stand a chance on deity level though.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
My favorites CIVs at the moment are Romans, Persians, Japanese and Chinese.
Each one is for a distinct purpose.
Babylobians and Egiptians are good but I don't like them.
Greeks are too peacefull for me (AI never want to make war to hoplites!)
Expansionistic CIVs are NOT an option.
THIS is my position, currently...
Each one is for a distinct purpose.
Babylobians and Egiptians are good but I don't like them.
Greeks are too peacefull for me (AI never want to make war to hoplites!)
Expansionistic CIVs are NOT an option.
THIS is my position, currently...
WoundedKnight
Warlord
- Joined
- May 28, 2002
- Messages
- 253
Some notes on this strategy.
I'm not saying that temples or cathedrals are bad. There are some times where temples and/or cathedrals are needed. Like GOTM 8, where there are only 3 readily available luxuries on the main continent from the starting position -- and 1 more if you invade the French or English. I did build some temples & cathedrals in large productive cities *late in the game* in anticipation of increased population and its happiness issues with sanitation technology and hospitals.
However, I would challenge the knee-jerk "build a temple everywhere" strategy. I hope my posts help the reader to consider temple and cathedral building on a more strategic level, as adjuncts to happiness in very large cities after luxury exploitation and marketplace construction is maxxed out. Save the resources and the money on superfluous temples, and use them to win the tech war instead with libraries and universities. And this strat actually gives you a cultural *advantage*, since libraries give more culture than temples and universities give more culture than cathedrals. In GOTM 8 (didn't submit it as I didn't finish in time), I had a lot of culture cities flip to me, as well as running away with technology and all the late wonders.
-WoundedKnight,
I'm not saying that temples or cathedrals are bad. There are some times where temples and/or cathedrals are needed. Like GOTM 8, where there are only 3 readily available luxuries on the main continent from the starting position -- and 1 more if you invade the French or English. I did build some temples & cathedrals in large productive cities *late in the game* in anticipation of increased population and its happiness issues with sanitation technology and hospitals.
However, I would challenge the knee-jerk "build a temple everywhere" strategy. I hope my posts help the reader to consider temple and cathedral building on a more strategic level, as adjuncts to happiness in very large cities after luxury exploitation and marketplace construction is maxxed out. Save the resources and the money on superfluous temples, and use them to win the tech war instead with libraries and universities. And this strat actually gives you a cultural *advantage*, since libraries give more culture than temples and universities give more culture than cathedrals. In GOTM 8 (didn't submit it as I didn't finish in time), I had a lot of culture cities flip to me, as well as running away with technology and all the late wonders.
-WoundedKnight,
DaDoo
Prince
Not building temples and cathedrals as a strat is rather interesting and rather challenging. I'm wondering what map size do you usually play on when you are using this strat? I normally play on huge maps(occassionally large, but never smaller) and the process of getting all 12 luxuries isn't exactly very easily accomplished, if possible. Some luxuries will be so deep inside another civ's territory that fighting my way to the luxury and then having to be able to connect that newly conquered luxury back to where I'm situated would be a challenge.
As for cultural aspect... I still believe having a temple AND a library (and the respective buildings that comes after those 2) expand my border and swallow other civ's cities faster.
(once swallowed 2 cities from another civ that are only 4 squares away from their capital)...
As for cultural aspect... I still believe having a temple AND a library (and the respective buildings that comes after those 2) expand my border and swallow other civ's cities faster.
(once swallowed 2 cities from another civ that are only 4 squares away from their capital)...
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Yes, you have make me reconsider some of my points of view (and many others also I'm sure). Thx for that.
Mad Bomber
Commander
8 luxuries will produce 20 happy faces w/ marketplace not 12
12 for marketplace but you also get 1 happy face per luxury in addition to marketplace bonus.
with 20 happy faces, there really is not much of a need for temples, cathedrals unless your city is 20+
most people don't realize the potential of the luxuries and markeplace combination. I fight wars over luxuries, if I can't trade for them.
e.g Egyptians would not trade for wines, so now they are my vassal, Rome you want to declare war, Fine! Thank you for the Ivory and Silks, Iroqouis want to trade for Gems? Thanx for the great deal you can live...for now!
12 for marketplace but you also get 1 happy face per luxury in addition to marketplace bonus.
with 20 happy faces, there really is not much of a need for temples, cathedrals unless your city is 20+
most people don't realize the potential of the luxuries and markeplace combination. I fight wars over luxuries, if I can't trade for them.
e.g Egyptians would not trade for wines, so now they are my vassal, Rome you want to declare war, Fine! Thank you for the Ivory and Silks, Iroqouis want to trade for Gems? Thanx for the great deal you can live...for now!
Ozymandius
Prince
For the price of some knights you can take over neighbouring cities for less than the cost of all "cultural baggage" that does not increase your score anyways; only territory and people count. The game does not distinguish between citizens you breed and citizens you force into your empire. Just count the cost of temple in each city + cathedrals + libraries. Get a marketplace, conquer your neighbours and steal their luxuries. Hit them early and hit them often. I play on hugh maps as the Egyptians and now find that conquering is much easier than building.... my score is also double what it used to be as a cultural snob among my AI civ rivals. Nothing like a whip to keep them cowered.. 
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Welcome to warmongers Ozy
That's the path
That's the path
On Emp level, large map, 16 civs the best way for me to expand in the first 40-50 turns is with Temples. In my last game for instance, I was able to create 7 cities before space had run out. However, I had taken over 3 cities _before_ space ran out, and another 4 cities just after that. I crushed the Aztecs without ever lifting a weapon. I took over 5 of their cities and left them with 3-4 and no where to build. I then realized that I had more cities than anyone else on my continent when we started trading world maps.
As a disclaimer, I do cheat a little. I play for 20 turns running my settler and worker around to find out how close other civs are to me. Then I start the game over.
As a disclaimer, I do cheat a little. I play for 20 turns running my settler and worker around to find out how close other civs are to me. Then I start the game over.
Mad Bomber
Commander
Why spend 20 turns?
After Game Starts
1) Save Game
2) found City
3) end turn
4) retire
after doing this you will see the complet map w/ all the starting positions of the civs (they always build their city on the first turn
if you decide the game is worth playing, reload.
After Game Starts
1) Save Game
2) found City
3) end turn
4) retire
after doing this you will see the complet map w/ all the starting positions of the civs (they always build their city on the first turn
if you decide the game is worth playing, reload.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Mad bomber, that is not fair...
Ozymandius
Prince
Madbomber:
I didn't know that anyone "cheated" in this game. I thought only the AI did that. Shame on you..
PS thanks for the tip... not that I ever admit to cheating... much..
If you want to know if the AI is ahead of you in building a wonder, save the game, build embassy, get status in each capital, reload.... It sure saves a lot of credits if you are behind and get wasted with a couple of turns to go,..
This is not cheating... my accountant made me do it..
I didn't know that anyone "cheated" in this game. I thought only the AI did that. Shame on you..
PS thanks for the tip... not that I ever admit to cheating... much..
If you want to know if the AI is ahead of you in building a wonder, save the game, build embassy, get status in each capital, reload.... It sure saves a lot of credits if you are behind and get wasted with a couple of turns to go,..
This is not cheating... my accountant made me do it..
Lt. 'Killer' M.
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2001
- Messages
- 7,475
I have to come to mad Biombers defence. I had so many games where I was isolated on archipelago maps, but the AI all bunched together that I don't want to play games like that for a while. So i do as he does.
newfangle
hates you.
I build everything in every city or else I feel guilty.
Ozymandius
Prince
Newfangle:
Guilt is good. If its one thing Ottawa has taught us, it is that useless capital expenditure on public works in the East, keeps the west happy. Let's hear it for the Liberal porkers. How much do you need for your election campaign?
Guilt is good. If its one thing Ottawa has taught us, it is that useless capital expenditure on public works in the East, keeps the west happy. Let's hear it for the Liberal porkers. How much do you need for your election campaign?
Mad Bomber
Commander
Understand one thing
I don't advocate cheating
But if you are going to cheat I dont advocate wasting 20 turns of gameplay that can be more profitably spent.
Personally I tried this a couple of times, It makes for a boring game & I haven't done it since.
I don't advocate cheating
But if you are going to cheat I dont advocate wasting 20 turns of gameplay that can be more profitably spent.
Personally I tried this a couple of times, It makes for a boring game & I haven't done it since.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Play Pangea maps and you won't need to see your starting locations...
