Mad Bomber
Commander
I don't like Pangea maps, I play on Continental maps (Huge) & it may be awhile before you can contact a civ on another continent, knowing where they are will help you contact them as well as exploration/exploitation.
Strategy - Victory without Temples or Cathedrals
- Thread starter WoundedKnight
- Start date
bobgote
Trousers
I play best as the persians. I don't build temples as a priority, since libraries are cheaper and have more culture, AND have a purpose other than happiness. I used to build temples first, but then i realised that building a library first was playing to the strength of my civ. Now I do it constantly.
My temples and cathedrals do get built, but later on, and after my power and culture are already in place. At this point its "hey, i have money to burn, i'll build those temples for my people's happiness now". They can always do with more happiness.
My temples and cathedrals do get built, but later on, and after my power and culture are already in place. At this point its "hey, i have money to burn, i'll build those temples for my people's happiness now". They can always do with more happiness.
Ozymandius
Prince
It's nice to use your "spy" capabilities to know in what direction those essential luxuries are located.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Mad Bomber:
Playing Pangea avoids many of games "stupid" starts, as well as the necessity to use the trick to know if the map is playable...
Besides, naval and air warfare becomes more simple so it's better to play and enjoy it.
All civs being in 2 large continents is really good... it makes exploration easier and it lows the chance of a surprise, most of the times bad...
bobgote:
Leave temples... they are just make you slower at conquering the world...
Playing Pangea avoids many of games "stupid" starts, as well as the necessity to use the trick to know if the map is playable...
Besides, naval and air warfare becomes more simple so it's better to play and enjoy it.
All civs being in 2 large continents is really good... it makes exploration easier and it lows the chance of a surprise, most of the times bad...
bobgote:
Leave temples... they are just make you slower at conquering the world...
Mad Bomber
Commander
Portuguese:
I don't disagree w/ you on points, but I'm a Naval man at heart & taking the Navy out of the game is distressing to me (which is why I play on continents) I don't like Island hopping games even though it puts more emphasis on navies though.
I don't disagree w/ you on points, but I'm a Naval man at heart & taking the Navy out of the game is distressing to me (which is why I play on continents) I don't like Island hopping games even though it puts more emphasis on navies though.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
If you like navy and you play CIV3, then...
... you... HAVE A PROBLEM...
Sorry to say, as I wasa fan of some naval engagement myself (total war), but in CIV3, anval warfare is not an option.
Bombardment rather tahen simple attack, simply sunk when alone in a city and lower attributes make me trully dislike naval warfare in CIV3.
In one of my last games, I took courage and wnt for it. Results:
- Immediate sea control (good, so my cities don'tget bombarded now and then...)
- Nothing to do after the 3rdturn!!!
Boats become useless,since enemies have no naval units, bombradments almost always miss and they can't defend cities!!! :aargh3:
Note: blaim Firaxis, not me. I'm just a victim like you are!!!
Firaxis:
... you... HAVE A PROBLEM...
Sorry to say, as I wasa fan of some naval engagement myself (total war), but in CIV3, anval warfare is not an option.
Bombardment rather tahen simple attack, simply sunk when alone in a city and lower attributes make me trully dislike naval warfare in CIV3.
In one of my last games, I took courage and wnt for it. Results:
- Immediate sea control (good, so my cities don'tget bombarded now and then...)
- Nothing to do after the 3rdturn!!!
Boats become useless,since enemies have no naval units, bombradments almost always miss and they can't defend cities!!! :aargh3:
Note: blaim Firaxis, not me. I'm just a victim like you are!!!
Firaxis:
Mad Bomber
Commander
portuguese:
I agree that navies are relatively useless in Civ 3, I just HATE playing games without Navies, It's not really a matter of effeciency its a matter of preference, Kind of like hating Micromanagement even though I know its the correct way to go.
Civ 3 without a decent navy has no attraction to me even if the acutal role it plays is minimal.
I agree that navies are relatively useless in Civ 3, I just HATE playing games without Navies, It's not really a matter of effeciency its a matter of preference, Kind of like hating Micromanagement even though I know its the correct way to go.
Civ 3 without a decent navy has no attraction to me even if the acutal role it plays is minimal.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
Hope you start to like land units most... 
My advice: in your case, checking starting points trick can be acceptable...
My advice: in your case, checking starting points trick can be acceptable...
Mad Bomber, I am WITH YOU!
I just am not happy without control of the seas. Like you I don't like Panegea (and Archpeg. games have their own problems) so I ususally play Large or Hugh continents.
Portuguese, your right that Firaxis has really frelled us about the Naval aspect of the game.
My solution, weak as it is, is a total overhaul of all Naval units stats, plus I am looking to build up the right set of new, additional units (including Naval air units that are distinct from "Land" air units.) Unfortunately, some of the things that really need to be done are not adustable or doable with the editor. Economic warfare a la submarine campign or privarteers preying on merchant marines (ie attack trade routes, and the other side commiting units for defense) would require extensive reworking of the game code, so the best we can hope for is to see it in Civ4. This is SAD, for a strategic game! Look at history and see who the most dominiant powers ususally were: Major Naval powers almost always trumped Land Only nations. England over France, US/Allies over Germany, etc. England over Spain and Holland ... here it was the stongest Naval power coming out over the weaker.
Maybe bringing back "Caravans", in some perhaps more abstracted fashion then CIv2 (or maybe not!), which would reqire shipping and protection, in order have overseas trade ... this would help. At least you'd have to convoy them and protect them in transit ... ah, Four seems SO FAR away. To bad PTW won't address these issues!!!
Lets hope for the best for Civ4. To be honest, if I am not sure CIv4 address's these issues, I will possibly not bother, after my experience with Three. Not to say that I have not enjoyed Civ3, I have, enormously, but like Mad Bomber, I'm a Naval Man at heart. It just seems So Wrong not having a strong Naval Aspect in a High Strategy/History of the World type game!
Mad Bomber
Commander
I do like land units, lots of 'em, fighters & Bombers too, only thing I don't like are Artillery (too damn slow)
My last game I had <200 MI's <150 MA's, 11 arty, 15 fighters, 20 bombers, 10 destroyers, 10 BB's, 4 CV's & 8-10 Nuc subs (great for launching those tactical missles) also had about 30 cav left over. I don't neglect my ground pounders but I DO like to have a navy!
My last game I had <200 MI's <150 MA's, 11 arty, 15 fighters, 20 bombers, 10 destroyers, 10 BB's, 4 CV's & 8-10 Nuc subs (great for launching those tactical missles) also had about 30 cav left over. I don't neglect my ground pounders but I DO like to have a navy!
Yzman
Deity
I don't use them much for battles but it is needed becuase the AI always tries to bombard my coast and after a while that hurts. I need a little protection from it.
Portuguese
Vassalising Spain
We all like it, Yz...
Maybe I mod CIV3 to naval units can defend cities alone, like they did in CIV2... and then I'll use them!
Why don't you all do the same? This way, they'llbe usefull...
Maybe I mod CIV3 to naval units can defend cities alone, like they did in CIV2... and then I'll use them!
Why don't you all do the same? This way, they'llbe usefull...
Ozymandius
Prince
Hi Zouave:
Culture flipping sucks big time. I am presently playing regent level Pangea near limits of domination 1200 AD (8,750 pts prior to reloading) to milk this game.
Because Firaxis wants me to use Attila approach to get a high score, I am constantly on the attack. I have not let the AI civ's time to build their own cultural stuff in cities near me. As I target larger, more distant civs' I am encountering cultural flipping. But in those cities near the AI's capital I do not have time to build cultural features to prevent flipping. My prime target is always the AI capital but unforunately the only solution seems to be "ethnic cleansing" and "cultural genocide". In a strange twist I SOMETIMES find that taking my troops out of, rather than adding more troops to a city prevents the flip. Staying at war also seems to slow down flipping more than making peace.
I do not like CIV 3 as much as I did before because I am forced to use non-cultural solutions to getting a high score. My populace is cheering me for victories as the AI tries to encroach on my conquered empire. For the last 30% of the AIs territory I will be forced to destroy every city contrary to my Builder mentality... all in the name of HOF.
Culture flipping sucks big time. I am presently playing regent level Pangea near limits of domination 1200 AD (8,750 pts prior to reloading) to milk this game.
Because Firaxis wants me to use Attila approach to get a high score, I am constantly on the attack. I have not let the AI civ's time to build their own cultural stuff in cities near me. As I target larger, more distant civs' I am encountering cultural flipping. But in those cities near the AI's capital I do not have time to build cultural features to prevent flipping. My prime target is always the AI capital but unforunately the only solution seems to be "ethnic cleansing" and "cultural genocide". In a strange twist I SOMETIMES find that taking my troops out of, rather than adding more troops to a city prevents the flip. Staying at war also seems to slow down flipping more than making peace.
I do not like CIV 3 as much as I did before because I am forced to use non-cultural solutions to getting a high score. My populace is cheering me for victories as the AI tries to encroach on my conquered empire. For the last 30% of the AIs territory I will be forced to destroy every city contrary to my Builder mentality... all in the name of HOF.
Ozymandius
Prince
I don't know how you guys rationalize talking about navies while discussing temples and cathedrals. Those war-mongering navies and sex-starved sailors have no business in this sacred thread.
Your complaints about Firaxis are valid though. Only a Pangea gives value for GW build on the same continent only. Corruption takes away all productivity of marine empires contrary to actual experience.
Great empires have to have strong navies (note Holland was a maritime power like England, just not populous enough to be as successful.) But this whole game design is build for land lubbers and rewards only that approach...... totally unhistoric and unrewarding...
Your complaints about Firaxis are valid though. Only a Pangea gives value for GW build on the same continent only. Corruption takes away all productivity of marine empires contrary to actual experience.
Great empires have to have strong navies (note Holland was a maritime power like England, just not populous enough to be as successful.) But this whole game design is build for land lubbers and rewards only that approach...... totally unhistoric and unrewarding...
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
I'm going to have to disagree with the author of this thread on the whole 'Temples and Cathedrals are not Necessary' idea. From reading through the posts, I've gathered that these comments are based on experiences playing on Huge Pangea maps on Regent difficulty. With no offense intended, these conditions are hardly typical of all games of Civ3 being played.
To be honest, this strategy is just going to fall flat on its face on Emperor/Deity. You CANNOT get through the game without ever building the happiness city improvements. Remember, you only get 1 content citizen at these levels; you need military police or a temple just to stay content at size 2! Whether you like it or not, each city IS going to need a temple just to avoid running a high luxury tax all the time.
The luxuries + marketplaces strategy is a good one, but what if you don't start next to 3-4 luxuries? It sounds like some of those commenting here are simply creating a new game when they don't have that kind of starting location; I hope I'm just misinterpreting the posts. On Deity especially, you cannot simply attack and kill everyone to get 8 luxuries. With luck you can trade for luxuries, but they are still going to be very expensive. When your cities hit size 10-12, they are definitely going to be needing cathedrals as well.
And Scientific as the best civ trait? I very strongly believe it's the WORST civ trait! Libraries may be 1/2 cost, but you shouldn't be doing any research yourself on Emperor/Deity as it is! Religious is indeed overvalued, but Industrious is, if anything, underrated as a strength. Double speed workers is amazingly powerful when used in the right hands.
I really don't think the Pyramids are better than the Industrious trait either. Granted, this comment was made with the understanding of playing on a Huge Pangea map, but it's still not true. The Pyramids provide a huge benefit, true, but I would still rather put those shields into initial expansion rather than tying one of my top cities down to a wonder for 30-40 turns early in the game. And then there's the problem of getting the wonder at all; in my recent Deity game the Pyramids were built in 1910BC. Care to try to win that wonder race?
Well, I'm not trying to be insulting to anyone here, but my experiences playing on all different map sizes and landforms have found that this strategy will not be effective in Emperor/Deity games. The point that temples are not necessary if you have marketplaces and control all 8 luxuries is a good one, but unfortunately any game in which this occurs will probably be already decided. I would encourage others out there to try their hand at a Deity game and see if you can get by without building any temples - I doubt it!
To be honest, this strategy is just going to fall flat on its face on Emperor/Deity. You CANNOT get through the game without ever building the happiness city improvements. Remember, you only get 1 content citizen at these levels; you need military police or a temple just to stay content at size 2! Whether you like it or not, each city IS going to need a temple just to avoid running a high luxury tax all the time.
The luxuries + marketplaces strategy is a good one, but what if you don't start next to 3-4 luxuries? It sounds like some of those commenting here are simply creating a new game when they don't have that kind of starting location; I hope I'm just misinterpreting the posts. On Deity especially, you cannot simply attack and kill everyone to get 8 luxuries. With luck you can trade for luxuries, but they are still going to be very expensive. When your cities hit size 10-12, they are definitely going to be needing cathedrals as well.
And Scientific as the best civ trait? I very strongly believe it's the WORST civ trait! Libraries may be 1/2 cost, but you shouldn't be doing any research yourself on Emperor/Deity as it is! Religious is indeed overvalued, but Industrious is, if anything, underrated as a strength. Double speed workers is amazingly powerful when used in the right hands.
I really don't think the Pyramids are better than the Industrious trait either. Granted, this comment was made with the understanding of playing on a Huge Pangea map, but it's still not true. The Pyramids provide a huge benefit, true, but I would still rather put those shields into initial expansion rather than tying one of my top cities down to a wonder for 30-40 turns early in the game. And then there's the problem of getting the wonder at all; in my recent Deity game the Pyramids were built in 1910BC. Care to try to win that wonder race?
Well, I'm not trying to be insulting to anyone here, but my experiences playing on all different map sizes and landforms have found that this strategy will not be effective in Emperor/Deity games. The point that temples are not necessary if you have marketplaces and control all 8 luxuries is a good one, but unfortunately any game in which this occurs will probably be already decided. I would encourage others out there to try their hand at a Deity game and see if you can get by without building any temples - I doubt it!
Mad Bomber
Commander
Oxymandius:
The Naval discussion came in as a result of a discussion of types of maps people play on, & illustrate the fact that each person plays Civ 3 differently.
Sullla:
I don't think that there is a single strategy that you can win with all of the time. Strategies need to consider difficulty level, tribal traits, type of map, and personal preferences in order to be successful. I think that this is the best thing about Civ 3 in that every game is different ( if you allow it to be) I play the Americans as my primary Nation, but my strategy would be different if I played the Germans, & would change again if it was the Persians. I also play differently if I play on a Pangea map v. a Island map. So keep in mind what strategies work in a given situation and work with them to best suit your needs.
Also, your comments on Emperor & Diety are duly noted as is your rank in GOTM & I will pay serious attention to your advice on these levels.
The Naval discussion came in as a result of a discussion of types of maps people play on, & illustrate the fact that each person plays Civ 3 differently.
Sullla:
I don't think that there is a single strategy that you can win with all of the time. Strategies need to consider difficulty level, tribal traits, type of map, and personal preferences in order to be successful. I think that this is the best thing about Civ 3 in that every game is different ( if you allow it to be) I play the Americans as my primary Nation, but my strategy would be different if I played the Germans, & would change again if it was the Persians. I also play differently if I play on a Pangea map v. a Island map. So keep in mind what strategies work in a given situation and work with them to best suit your needs.
Also, your comments on Emperor & Diety are duly noted as is your rank in GOTM & I will pay serious attention to your advice on these levels.
In my core city i find building temple is good, because it cost less to maintain a temple then to increase lux slider to avoid revolt, same for cathedral when size reach 10-12.
But later on when i got some luxuries, each newly found or captured city will start library first and marketplace. Temple only when size reach 6-7.
On emperor level i think it is important to buy tech but some reaserch have to be done too, especialy critical tech, so a scientific trait on emperor level is very good. ( i am able to win on emperor with German without too much problem). Of course manipuating the a.i. critical, but i dont rely on them exclusively for my tech research.
But it always depend on the map, level, luxuries available, # a.i. civilisation and their proximity, so IMHO your judgement is more important then any game concept.
But later on when i got some luxuries, each newly found or captured city will start library first and marketplace. Temple only when size reach 6-7.
On emperor level i think it is important to buy tech but some reaserch have to be done too, especialy critical tech, so a scientific trait on emperor level is very good. ( i am able to win on emperor with German without too much problem). Of course manipuating the a.i. critical, but i dont rely on them exclusively for my tech research.
But it always depend on the map, level, luxuries available, # a.i. civilisation and their proximity, so IMHO your judgement is more important then any game concept.
Ozymandius
Prince
Sulla:
To that Roman emperor who never lost a war and retired to orgies of Roman bliss (but died horribly I think)
Thanks for the warning about higher levels. Since I'm only a humble regent (aspiring at that) I will take your advice seriously if I get promoted. Till then this barbarian will burn and pillage his way through this Pangea and sell off temples as soon as they have expanded my city boundaries so that my cultural score will not go up.
Good luck on your next GOTM..
To that Roman emperor who never lost a war and retired to orgies of Roman bliss (but died horribly I think)
Thanks for the warning about higher levels. Since I'm only a humble regent (aspiring at that) I will take your advice seriously if I get promoted. Till then this barbarian will burn and pillage his way through this Pangea and sell off temples as soon as they have expanded my city boundaries so that my cultural score will not go up.
Good luck on your next GOTM..
Zouave
Crusader
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,603
Yea. Culture Flipping SUCKS. Early this morning I had a town of '1' just across my border flip despite NINE military units in it!
The entire garrison vanished into the air, and I quit the game in disgust.What about this in the Editor?
Set success = 0%, resistanace = 100%.
In theory this should produce ZERO culture flips.
Give it a try a report back people.
Perhaps that will minimize this CF garbage??