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[hetairoi22]

But why require Riding? You can't tell me you need to be able to ride horses to move something with wheels? How about it requiring The Wheel and Construction, representing the complexity of building wheeled vehicles?

I like your idea with Tactics, but maybe Mil. Hierarchy would be to much? We don't want to over-emphasize war, now do we...?

About Technocracy: I have a few ideas... How about making it like Democracy in regard to the military (0 police, 0 free support...), give it the commercial bonus and let a civ ruled by such a govt. be able to build a special cheap "Science Committee" improvement in each city? To give it a downside, one could give it the new Xenophobic ability (given to the Fascism govt. in C3C, disallowing growth in cities with a majority of foreigners) to represent the want for everything to be uniform ("scientific")... I know this might seem a tad ( ) negative, but it would make it a little special What do you think?

Some more ideas,

Het22

 

[thestonesfan]

Good tech tree, but what tech do you get Horsemen with?

The reason I ask is because men used chariots long before they fought on horseback, because the horses were too small to carry a man very well. Once they started breeding horses to increase their size and strength, chariots were obsolete.

 

[Amenhotep7]

Alright, het. Not too much emphasis on war...Xenophobic ability seems nice, but these guys are all about peace and free flow of info. Good ideas...Straczynski? Would u like to comment?

 

[jamesjkirk]

That's what Civil Liberties is for.

Shouldn't this be Civil Rights if it's in reference to emancipation and equal rights? The two are often confused, but civil liberties refer to freedom through the government staying out of one's business so to speak, and civil rights refers to government taking and active role to ensure equality and whatnot.

Overall this looks great, I like all the "flavor" of governments you have available, though some might dispute whether workers would be more efficient in a Social Democracy - but if it's for balance, I'm all for it. I'll definitely check this out, and perhaps "borrow" some ideas for my own use :b:

 

[Straczynski]

Originally posted by black_rose

As far as I know it is called Sustainable Development.

So Sustainable Development it shall be!

Originally posted by Amenhotep7

Why does trade need Code of Laws??? Personally, I think that Trade should come after some kind of "Early Diplomacy" Tech

Well, let's say that this Code of Laws includes an Early Diplomatic Code...

Medicine in Medieval times??? Remember, in Colonial America, there were such strange cures as using "Dr. Rush's Thunderbolts", superlaxatives that had little or no effect. The same goes for draining blood! Medicine as we know it didn't come till after sanitation, unless you're talking about the practice of medicine, of which these primitive treatments belonged to.

Yes, I was meaning the practice of medicine... Anyway, I guess I'll move it back to the Industrial age... Thanks for the tip!

Strtegy in Middle Ages? So before the Fall of Rome, they just rushed blindly into battle with no plan?

Actually, I planned on including a "Tactics" tech on the ancient era... Do you think it sounds better than "Organized Army"?

Originally posted by hetairoi22

And shouldn't Currency also require Mathematics, since you'll need to place values upon your coins, and be able to add them together etc...?

My bad. I'll fix that.

Originally posted by Amenhotep7

I also think that instead of leading directly to Organized Army, Seafaring could lead to Local Rule (or Provinces, requiring Trade or Code of Laws), allowing the Forbidden Palace to be built, which in turn could lead to Org. Army.

Yes, I liked this Local Rule idea! Just one thing, there won't be just the Forbidden Palace, but lots of different structures with the same role... All civs can build the Summer and Winter Palaces, while only the Theocratic ones can build, say, the Holy City. The Federations can build the Parliament, Communist regimes can build the Secret Police HQ, Constitutional Monarchies can build the Royal Guard...

BTW, what excactly does Wheeled Vehicles give you, coming after Riding?

Catapults.

I'll comment the other posts later today. I'll have lunch right now, then I'll go to school and only be back and arround 11pm... Stay tuned!

 

[Amenhotep7]

What Het wants to know is: What does riding have to do with wheeled vehicles. One word, het...chariots. Tactics sounds better. This so far looks good. An idea: Technocracy should come after World Wide Web, since Technocracy needs free flow of information.

 

[hetairoi22]

But you don't have to ride the horses to have them draw a chariot, or?

I agree with yout idea on the prerequisite for Technorcracy!

I also like the idea of Small Wonders unique to certain govts. Maybe some govts. should be able to build more of these than others (depends on how centralized it is...)

I just noticed how many techs lead to Naval Tactics... You could cut don't on those by letting Navigation lead to Mercantilism (but NOT Nav. Tactics), since that in turn leads to Nav. Tactics anyway... You could also let Gunpowder lead to Military Tradition and not Nav. Tactics, since Mil. Trad. leads to Nav. Tactics already. But that, of course, depends on what Military Tradition gives...

Just a thought.

Het22

 

[Amenhotep7]

Guess ur right, het. Okay...I was thinkin' about SMAC lately, and I was wondering about a few things:

1. We should add fundamentalism. The dictionary clearly states that Fundamentalism and Theocracy are different:

fun·da·men·tal·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.
1.A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

2. -a.often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
-----b.Adherence to the theology of this movement.

And Theocracy:

the·oc·ra·cy (n.
1.A government ruled by or subject to religious authority.
2.A state so governed.

So I have come to the conclusion that Fundamentalism is almost always warmongering, which is not the case for Theocracy.

2. Speaking of SMAC, it had included future govts.

Mind Control
Cybernetic
Eudaimonia

Mind Control involved secretly placing nanorobots into the atmosphere, allowing the citizens to inhale them, and become much more loyal and resistant to outside ideals. Of course, this would require maybe a Nanotechnology wonder/tech. Unfortunately, maintaining such a complex system costs alot.

Cybernetic involved robots taking on more prctical tasks such as: Manufacturing, Mining, Policing, Programming new laws human parliament passed, firefighting, etc. Whereas humans take on more creative tasks, such as government, arts, sciences, writing, music, etc. Problem is, the people who cannot find jobs may fall into civil unrest.

Eudaimonia is complex to explain. Wikipedia defines it as:

Aristotle on Eudaimonia
Structure of Aristotle's discussion of eudaimonia.


Different acts have different ends. There is a hierarchy of ends and a highest end.
The highest end is eudaimonia.
Eudaimonia is ...

Part 1

Every act, craft, decision (i.e., all (intentional) human activity) aims at some end that seems good to the agent in some sense.
There are two types of ends: those that are themselves activities (e.g., *playing the flute) and those that are products beyond the activity (e.g., housebuilding).
There is a highest end or good.
Knowledge of the highest end is useful.
The highest end is the subject of practical philosophy.
Practical philosophy has its own degree of exactness.
Practical philosophy is useful for those who are guided by reason.

Part 2

The highest good is commonly agreed to be eudaimonia.
Something must satisfy the following formal criteria if it is to be a suitable candidate for the highest end.
Some ends are complete, others are incomplete. The highest end must be complete.
Complete ends must have the following features:
They must be choiceworthy for themselves and not for some other end.
They must be self-sufficient. (They cannot be complete if they lack something.)
They must not become greater if another good is added to them.
For example, my salary becomes greater if I add a cookie to it. The good life does not become better if I add a cookie to it.
Eudaimonia satisfies these criteria.

Part 3

Function (ergon) argument:
Everything has a peculiar function.
What is good for an x depends on x's function. So, in order to determine what is good for x we must determine its function.
The function of human beings is to have and use reason.
There are two parts of the soul relative to reason: that which possesses reason in itself and that which merely participates in it.
We must distinguish the capacity for reasoning and the activity of reasoning. The essence of a capacity only comes out when it is used so it is the activity of reasoning that is the function of human beings.
It is possible to have reason without activating it and to both have and activate reason. The human function is the souls activity which expresses or requires reason. (Note the reference to the two parts of the soul here.)
That which displays its function well displays arete.
Note that we are talking about excellence here rather than moral virtue in the narrow sense.
Every function can be performed well or badly. It must be performed well if the thing is to be excellence.
The human function must be performed well if it is to display arete.
[Stability Requirement] The good life requires permanence and stability over time. The required activities must be displayed over time.
The human good is the activity of the soul which expresses or requires reason insofar as that activity is performed well and displayed over time.
So, eudaimonia is:
The activity of those parts of the soul;
It is an activity, not a product;
It is more than just a capacity (the good life cannot consist in the mere possession of the peculiar capacities, it must consist in their use or actualisation)
It is an activity that is itself an end and is not intended to produce a further result.
which are peculiar to the human soul;
What matters are the parts of the soul that are peculiar to human beings because Aristotle wants to pick out the typical function of human beings.
If this activity is in accordance with human excellence;
Since every capacity can be used well or badly the activity of the human soul must be a good one, if we want to describe the good life for human beings.
If this activity is constant (can be ascribed to the complete human life);
Stability requirement.
Or, if there are several aretes, in accordance with the best and most perfect of them.
There are two parts of the human soul which are able to display excellence, that which displays reason and that which listens to reason. Aristotle seems to want to say that one of the excellences is better, and that the good life must be in accordance with that excellence.

With the people so free, money increases, happiness increase greatly, but the people will not normally want to go to war and Police is almost completely intolerable.

 

[Amenhotep7]

? I eagerly await acception/decline...

 

[Straczynski]

And now, more replies!

Originally posted by Amenhotep7

I think that siege should be a seperate idea coming after wheeled vehicles and maybe some sort of woodworking tech.

That way, we would have too many ancient age techs to research... Wheeled Vehicles allows Chariots and Catapults (and also Balistas for the Romans and the Greeks...).

Siege would in turn lead to organized army, which I think should lead to Strategy...Speaking of strategy, you should create maybe Tactics and Military Hierarchy.

In a later-to-come version of the tree, as I've already said a few posts ago, there'll be a Tactics tech (Strategy will still be the one at the end of the medieval era), which will in turn lead to Organized Army.

Originally posted by hetairoi22

But why require Riding? You can't tell me you need to be able to ride horses to move something with wheels?

Once again, I hate to be wrong. I'll fix that.

About Technocracy: I have a few ideas...

Well, since you've touched on the subject... I guess I'll drop Technocracy from the mod. I guess I just don't want too much of a "future" feeling in the later parts of the modern era. The only "futuristic" stuff will be the Electrogravitics (serious anti-gravity studies) tech, that allows Deep Space Travel, which makes it possible to build the spaceship's parts. Maybe I'll create a Perfect AI small wonder which would take the Cape Canaveral's job of allowing the parts to be built...

Back to the governments, the only thing new I'm thinking right now is about a Military Junta... You know, the average CIA-backed puppet-state in Latin America from the 60ies to the late 80ies... Maybe I'll make it sorta like Fascism, but with worse stats, without the Xenophobic tag, and that "small cities are good, big cities are bad" thing from C3C Feudalism...

Originally posted by thestonesfan

Good tech tree, but what tech do you get Horsemen with? The reason I ask is because men used chariots long before they fought on horseback, because the horses were too small to carry a man very well. Once they started breeding horses to increase their size and strength, chariots were obsolete.

Hm, I didn't know that... I mean, I knew chariots were used before riders, but I only didn't know the reason... So, let's do the following: Horseman come with Riding (there'll be a Heavy Horseman with Organized Army as well), Chariots come on The Wheel, Catapults and Balistas on Wheeled Vehicles. Is that good?

Originally posted by jamesjkirk

Shouldn't this be Civil Rights if it's in reference to emancipation and equal rights? The two are often confused, but civil liberties refer to freedom through the government staying out of one's business so to speak, and civil rights refers to government taking and active role to ensure equality and whatnot

Yes, you're right! I'll fix that.

Overall this looks great, I like all the "flavor" of governments you have available, though some might dispute whether workers would be more efficient in a Social Democracy - but if it's for balance, I'm all for it. I'll definitely check this out, and perhaps "borrow" some ideas for my own use :b:

Thanks, and fell free to borrow anything you'd like to!

Originally posted by hetairoi22

I just noticed how many techs lead to Naval Tactics... You could cut don't on those by letting Navigation lead to Mercantilism (but NOT Nav. Tactics), since that in turn leads to Nav. Tactics anyway...

That has already been fixed.

Originally posted by Amenhotep7

We should add fundamentalism. The dictionary clearly states that Fundamentalism and Theocracy are different

Well, I didn't know there was a difference between both, thanks for the info! But, the word Fundamentalism evokes too much the idea of *Islamic* fundamentalism, while my Theocracy will be used not only by Islamic civilizations...

I was thinkin' about SMAC lately

What's SMAC, by the way?

 

[Amenhotep7]

SMAC: Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri...There is an Alpha Centauri forum here under All Other Games...No Technocracy??? Shoot...Ah, well...

 

[Straczynski]

*bump*

Come on, I'd love to hear more suggestions...

 

[hetairoi22]

Erm, OK. Here goes

Why not switch around Missiles and Rocketry? As I, at least, see Missiles as being guided somehow (electronically, using computers, lasers etc.) and rockets as just something that uses explosives as propulsion. Simple rockets where in use over 500 years ago by the Chinese and the Mongols. I believe they were just bamboo sticks filled with gunpowder... I guess, what I'm trying to say is that rocketry, the art of building rockets, should come before missiles, a modern concept.

 

[Straczynski]

Hm... The german flying bombs from WWII (I'm using Pablostuka's V1 while a V2 isn't made...) were guided weapons. So, I guess there's not much problem with missiles coming before rocketry... Both are modern concepts in Civ...

Anyway, thanks for the post!

 

[Straczynski]

*Another bump!*

So I've made some changes to the tech tree. Take a look on the first post on this thread!

Nothing big, just accepted some sugestions from the people who posted here (thanks, guys!) and added some new techs: Tactics (replacing Organized Army) and Siege Warfare on the Ancient Age; Crop Rotation on the Medieval Era; Steam Boats on the Industrial Age; and Information Warfare and Nuclear Weapons on the Modern Era.

Please, let me know what you think of it. And maybe Sunday I'll post the complete list of Great Wonders I'll use on the mod!

 

[Unexisted]

I like the unique pictures for each tech.

 

[Straczynski]

Thanks, Unexisted!

 

[Amenhotep7]

Electrogravitics should be Electrogravitonics.
The internet should lead to the World Wide Web, as the Internet is not necessarily World Wide. Perhaps the World Wide Web can lead to Globaliztion, thanks to the fast exchange of info. World Wide Web should also lead to Information Warfare. Hmm...Perhaps you should add a kind of "buisness ethics" tech. Before the Sherman Antitrust Act, trusts were creating economically devastating monopolies. More later.

 

[Straczynski]

Gravitics, gravitonics, what's the difference...

On the Internet - Web thing... The Internet allows for the World Wide Web great wonder. And Globalized Economy existed way before there was the Web... Remember the 1929 crash?

And Globalization is a Wonder avaiable with Globalized Economy.

 

[Amenhotep7]

O! Sorry. of corse, I dunno what Globaliztion did...I just know it involves Capitalism. Time to go to dictionary.com!