[BTS] Stumbling back at Deity

[Pangaea]

GAME TWO!

I'm feeling completely beat up today from moving apartments, with great timing with the elevator not working and needing to carry furniture down 6 flights of stairs, being bruised and blue all over. Sounds like a perfect way to start another Deity game, already beat up!

First roll was Cyrus, another Chariot specialist, so figured I'd try again.

Same settings as before: Fractal, medium sea level, tropical, 6 random AIs, Deity.

And we draw...

Spoiler :

ALEXANDER!

 

[Pangaea]

Starting techs isn't great (Fishing, Hunting), but at least we get a shortcut to Archery if needed, and also a bonus on AH later. Coastal start without seafood isn't great either, so I'm thinking of going inland a little. 1N or 1NE looks good, and I'm probably leaning towards 1N so we get more forests. Means a turn more moving to the corn, but for a stronger capital that is okay I think. Helps with fogbusting too. The PH could be an option (2W), but again that seems like a poor choice given that area looks free for backfilling.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Fippy]

1ne would would keep the mystery tile 1se of spices and grabs more fog, but 1n keeps one tile too..can the scout look at 3n of him if hugging coast?

 

[Pangaea]

There is also a naked mystery tile 2N2W of current settler position, which would be grabbed with 1N. But it's also possible that SE of corn is a mystery tile which may contain something good. However, moving northwards will enable a city down on the coast, which could also be useful, particularly if there happens to be seafood down there. Looks like 1N also enables a city on the west coast, but naturally that also applies to SIP.

Maybe move the scout 1W then 1N? Looks like the tile north of that is naked, so he'd be able to move further north next turn. Presumably AIs are close to our north and east.

 

[Pangaea]

Looks like the reception or feedback here was a bit flat, but since I got busy with BOTM games, maybe it's best to let this sit a while longer and see if others pipe up with some comments. Otherwise I'll probably try to settle 1N or NE and see what happens early on. Agri first makes sense ofc.

 

[Pangaea]

Isn't that forested ?

It shows better in-game I suppose, but no, that tile is naked. Could have something nice, and it may just be naked.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks, I'll have to postpone reading that until later then. I've not moved a single unit yet

 

[Pangaea]

Figured I should start at least, and see what happens in the early turns. I've now stopped in T10, as there is a tech decision to make.

Spoiler :

Scout moves W->N and sees pigs. Very nice. But moving to the coast feels wrong here, as we increase the risk of getting squeezed for land. I then move the settler NE. Doesn't tell me anything more, and I settle there, crossing my fingers for something to come in from the fog.

Spoiler :

Sadly missed a banana, but otherwise okay. Couldn't have farmed it anyway, so it hurts less then.

I started with Agri ofc, and a worker, and sent the scout further north along the coast. Pretty soon he runs into much jungle, so I send him eastwards. I did think about sending him back down south to fogbust, but guess it felt a bit early.

Oh, also took demographics screenies. 30k power is Mansa? I always forget those things. No CRE civs from what I could tell though, as there was no big land spike in T3. Buddhism went in T9, so there is at least one Mysticism civ.

Spoiler :

T1 demographics:

T3 demographics:

Didn't meet an AI pre-turn 5, so no slight bonus on postponing picking a tech until then. Bismarck shows up in T6, and I just ran into one of Pacal's scout in T10. Changed EPS to Pacal, as I think he may be a better techer. Bismarck is more of a dangerous military opportunist. They have EPs on others, so there are more civs on the continent, but I haven't found them yet. Haven't spotted any cultural borders yet either (with the zooming out trick).

Overview map with comments below

Spoiler :

I've marked two good locations to the west, though ofc the southern one must be changed if there is seafood. Between rice and pigs is an excellent second city, but in the wrong direction (safe backfill). However, I'm still currently leaning towards going there, unless something better shows up south of the banana, or thereabouts. We have a lot of jungle nearby, far from ideal, but also appear to have some room before the AIs meet us. I suspect Bismarck is to the SE somewhere, though, so he may put us under pressure soon-ish.

The reason to stop is that I'm unsure about what tech to pick. AH is selected on the back of possibly going west with city #2, but otherwise Mining->BW is the more traditional approach. AH does get boosted from starting with Hunting, though, so that is nice. Due to hills and the riverside pig (great tile!), the wheat can sadly never be irrigated, so that was a little sad. Health shouldn't be a concern, though, with corn, wheat and rice nearby. Loads and loads of Dyes nearby too, which I hope isn't a dark omen

Scout feels a bit far afield now, but I'm bringing him back down and west, assuming he doesn't die.

Did you settle E on the spice, BiC, despite 'losing' a turn? (and longterm a food)

 

[civac]

Do you want to farm the river grassland next to the corn?

 

[Fippy]

I don't think you can afford AH now, Cap is weak without chops early.
Also looks like barb heaven..knowing about copper would be very important.

Ofc it's 50:50 with horsies or copper, but Axes are much stronger

 

[Nick723]

Definitely not animal husbandry next unless looking for horses, there’s no way you can use it immediately. You have time to tech either mining or the wheel first regardless both which have more immediate value. I would go mining.

personally I would definitely go west and south west with cities 2 and 3 - easily safe from barbs and the better spots. Given the jungle and lack of ais no immediate rush to ‘claim’ land in my opinion - you’ll just make life with barbs v tough if you do so. Better to find copper / horses first.

 

[Pangaea]

Do you want to farm the river grassland next to the corn?

Probably not. You're thinking irrigation? Unless there is a river further SE somewhere, an alternative is to farm the plains tile, and then the non-riverside grassland east of corn. Riverside green are valuable in the capital.

I don't think you can afford AH now, Cap is weak without chops early.
Also looks like barb heaven..knowing about copper would be very important.

Ofc it's 50:50 with horsies or copper, but Axes are much stronger

Hmm, you are surely right as always. I tend to get too blinded thinking about developing the cities and empire, and half-way forget about the great threat barbs can cause on Deity. With that in mind, I probably have no choice other than going Mining->BW. AH can come later. And a city over there can have the rice for the time being.

Always a big fright if you get chariots for barb defence, and then a spear or two invades. Gah!

 

[Pangaea]

Definitely not animal husbandry next unless looking for horses, there’s no way you can use it immediately. You have time to tech either mining or the wheel first regardless both which have more immediate value. I would go mining.

personally I would definitely go west and south west with cities 2 and 3 - easily safe from barbs and the better spots. Given the jungle and lack of ais no immediate rush to ‘claim’ land in my opinion - you’ll just make life with barbs v tough if you do so. Better to find copper / horses first.

Crosssposted, but good points. It's nice to have cities in the 'shadow' of the capital like that, and be well protected against barbs.

 

[Pangaea]

Session ended up a little long, and it's now T39. Met some more AIs, not dead yet.

Spoiler :

One turn into the session, and a panther attacks my scout in the jungle. Clear winning odds, but you know how that goes. Kinda boring to play with zero units to move or any other input.

Turn 27 and I start the settler at size 3, after having farmed the spice. Worker then went onto the hill to mine it. BW would be online same turn he got done.

Thankfully no barbs spawned on the west side, and the warrior got there in safety. He then spots a Mansa workboat, and an island/continent, so Mansa is presumably over to the west somewhere. Almost tech view on Pacal, but I change EPs to Mansa.

BW is in, and we have zilch. Can't even see copper anywhere in the known world (admittedly small due to the scout being eaten). I decide to go Archery. I have zero fogbusting, the world is massive, I see no AI borders, and it's past turn 30. Too dangerous. Soon later a barb warrior kills a Chinese scout that is healing outside our borders. I suspect he will invade, but he turns around. Phew.

Worker micro was a little awkward, and I opted to send him to that hill on the south (safe) side to chop one more time.

As usual I forgot to swap to slavery with the settler in transit (this is why I almost always change INSTANTLY), so I reloaded an autosave and did that. Made timings awkward again, but at least we have slavery online with only one city. Can now put that chop into an archer, or alternatively to practically complete the barracks. Think I'd prefer the archer, as there could be a large horde of barbs heading towards us right now.

Tech-wise it seems more prudent to go AH now. I want to get that excellent pigs tile up, and without copper, I am crossing my fingers for horses at least. Otherwise this will be a tough game.

Maybe grow the capital to 4 and then 2-pop a worker? After the chop, the worker I have needs to go up and improve the rice. edit: hmm, or does he? It's only +1

 

[Pangaea]

Couldn't help myself and kept playing. If it's too bad, I can go back I suppose. 1200BC.

Spoiler :

Instantly the barbs invaded.

Spoiler :

Even with that chopped archer, this is extremely serious.

Can't get out a warrior quick enough in the new city, it's a turn too late despite working the mine. I have to take on this 56% fight, and it's do or die.

Spoiler :

Well, that was close. Archer wins the fight against the damaged warrior too, and Sparta lives another day. For once we were lucky.

Once healed, that archer plus another one moves up north and fogbusts the jungle. A barb city has cropped up somewhere, but I can't check out more land there for fear of units spawning behind them.

Bismarck building the Great Wall certainly doesn't help the situation, and barbs are coming in from the east as well.

Spoiler :

Same archer wrecked our butts twice. Very unfun. Had to one-pop a chariot in the capital to deal with him.

Oh yeah, that's news. We have HORSES! Settling that city on top of sheep was very awkward, and possibly a mistake, but I didn't want to kill the clams. Before seeing the clams, the idea was to settle on the green hill NE. We have also limped to Pottery here. The economy is bad, and I need cottages. We have no other commerce.

Due to all the barb issues, expansion is slow, and many hammers have to go into units. Fourth city is not founded until 1200BC, for wheat on the west. Finally see German borders, and the AIs are expanding like wildfire now, but hopefully I can get some more cities over to the east. Don't want to go into the jungle. We don't have any happiness, though, so things are difficult.

world map.

Spoiler :

Should be able to get to Writing in three turns, and then I need to get up at least one library and get a quick GS for an Academy, or alternatively some type of bulb. Probably too far behind for that to really do anything, though. Bulbing Math feels like a horrible waste of beakers. Strangely nobody has Alpha yet, and only Mao has Writing. Very odd, given some of them have close to 10 cities. I'm feeling very off the pace here. Hopefully all isn't lost?

 

[Pangaea]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, it has turned into an unexpectedly tough map. Survival was incredibly close several times. You are right that my hand was forced for many decisions. It's possible I could have gone The Wheel-Pottery before BW for a better economy. But I had to bank on getting copper really, and whipping+chopping. Without that, I'd be dead. Could also have gone Pottery instead of AH after BW->Archery. But then that pigs tile is mighty good, and without copper I did hope we would have horses nearby, and once we did, it was great to get that tile improved. I may have single popped an archer in the capital at that time ofc, but it was nice to get out a chariot that was able to get to the invading archer before he crushed the sheep city (he moved south towards it instead of the capital).

Moving forward, think I would like a city for the corn and inland lakes, but probably not super-soon. But that will be a strong city down the line, and also provide a good bunch of commerce even without a lighthouse. These commerce and happiness poor environments are hard. Feel like I can't just sit back at 2-3 cities either, because that too is a recipe for loss, with the AI grabbing everything else. Would love to trade for even just one happiness resource, but nothing has come up yet.

The N/NE seems more calm now. I have those two archers fogbusting practically everything, and then there is a barb city, which typically calms down the barb invasions a bit. East is less under control, but since we can see German borders there, probably not TOO many barbs can spawn. Need MP units for these small cities, but think I'll be able to get out a unit or two soon-ish to scout the east a little better.

Progress is difficult, though. The only plan I currently have is to get to Writing, open borders with the others (amazing so few has writing yet!), hope for some good resource trades, and then get up a library and a GS. I'm thinking an academy, since good bulbs is too far away. For Alpha, Aesthetics seems like the best choice. Depends what these other jokers go for, but usually it's a fairly safe choice. Will take a long time for me to get there though, with the economy in a bad shape and so little commerce, but that seems like my only choice?

Don't think I can dare things like blocker cities and such at this venture. The economy won't handle it. I'd like to get that lake-corn city, though, before Bismarck busts a gut to get over there. But it can't be super soon. Need to save some gold now and get up a library or two. Pigs+rice is a good city to run two scientists.

I have gotten out a workboat btw for scouting purposes. It has just got to the corn on the way towards Bismarck.

Realise that Corinth perhaps was a mistake, guess I just hated the idea of wasting that clam. I would have put it NE though, so it could have cottaged the banana. The capital needs the corn anyway. It's the only food it has. Unfortunate that a resource settle like that doesn't give extra hammers/commerce, but I'll have to live with it now. Much baah-baah-ing

I'm sure things could be optimised more if the map was replayed, but that will be with map knowledge advantage, which I ofc didn't have now.

 

[Pangaea]

Ach. Played a few turns because something caught my eye.

Spoiler :

Boat and archer moves a little further east -- and spots a German settler party. Damnit! They don't waste any time, do they.

I assume he will steal my spot, and he does, but it's still an odd one. Maybe there is iron nearby or something. Seems a strange place just for the stone.

Means the spot further south is free, though I suppose he'll get another settler over there pretty soon too.

Mids also went this turn (Monty), and Monty is plotting. Fun times It's presumably on Mansa as they appear to be close (religious spread). They used to hate each other, but became Cautious when Mansa got infected with Judaism.

Hoped for the game got a little lower, though, with that lakes area probably lost. I have nothing else half-way decent to settle tbh. He brought some swords over too, seems to be going NW. May eventually go for the barb city way north, or prepare to surround us with cities, near jungle pigs, rice etc (amazingly not yet jungled).

The second city of the last AI is size 11. Crikey!

 

[Pangaea]

@bic

Spoiler :

Very nice! Didn't you get invaded by barbs, though? I had quite some issues with that.

Fantastic to secure GLH of course, but that is very lucky I suspect. It went around 1600BC in my game. Yes, so it did, had to fire up the game again to check for sure.

This is in T74, and that giant city makes me sick tbh. Not even 1000BC, and they have giant cities like that. Probably early HR plus thousand MPs.

 

[Pangaea]

Strange isn't it. Feels like a lost game already, and I've barely gotten started! But I played a little further, to almost T90.

Spoiler :

Monty is plotting, has built Mids, and goes Police State. I'd be worried if I was in Mansa's pants.

Pacal seems to be far away, but he has sent to Hindui missionaries our way. Judaism also auto-spread, but I've not picked a side yet.

Suddenly I spot Maya borders in the northern jungle, so he has settled there, and there is another guy waiting for a settler, fortified. Due to other AI units roaming about, my archers have explored a little more, and I've uncovered the whole coast. It's a nice location really, all that blasted jungle aside. Many resources and food.

In T87 Montezuma declares war on Mansa. Can't imagine that to be a pleasant experience. Our exploreboat has found China. I'm slowly working on another one to check out the island(?) where Mansa and Monty came from. A boat for the clam is also ready, as it just expanded borders due to the random Judaism spread.

Otherwise I whipped two libraries and ran two scientists in pigs-rice. Just built an Academy in the capital. We have over 200 gold now, and can get Aesthetics in 6 turns. Nobody has Alpha yet, but I should think that can't be far off. Strange game. They're expanding like crazy with big cities, but haven't gotten Alpha nor CoL yet. Nobody with HR either, strangely enough, but I haven't met the last AI yet (but saw from BiC that it is Saladin).

Great news in T88, as Pacal has Gems available for trade. YES!! I give him our sheep, which he thankfully accepts. Hinduism looks like the religion to be in now, with Mao and Bismarck already converted too. I've not flipped yet, but probably should. I hoped for more missionaries.

Things hardly look good, but less bad than they did. Need to try to grab some more city spots, though. Have roaded to Bismarck's Dortmund, but not sure I should keep going.

Spoiler :

Edit: Capital currently, and save attached.

Spoiler :

Sorry for having steamed ahead too quickly here. I should stop entirely and wait for feedback about sensible plans ahead.

My own thinking here is probably to get Aesthetics, plus a bit into Alpha, and hope somebody else gets that in the meantime. Then get Sailing, IW and Math hopefully. I know Mansa has Math and Construction. Hopefully he picks Alpha now, but we'll know next turn. Then I'm thinking that two more cities need to be founded. Maybe the south tip with corn+crabs is too aggressive, could lead to border pressure from Bismarck. but there is also the banana and the jungled pigs, which are okay cities. The capital has some OF-hammers into a settler, but I'd like it to grow a little more first. Thebes can probably whip a settler in decent time, though I was thinking to let Sparta keep working the two scientists. Maybe I'll be able to bulb Philo or something?

 

[Pangaea]

On your game:

Spoiler :

When I saw that settler way out of whack, I assumed you would gift Bismarck a city. That (almost) always causes a groan in my throat, but I am nevertheless surprised you went all the way over there to settle in his face for a city that strictly speaking isn't all that great. Did you want the stone?

Do you have a penalty for "close borders" with him? Is it too late to gift away that city to him, ie. would you still get liberation bonus for it? Perhaps he'll get pleased then, and you can beg a small tech (after alpha) or a cow or whatever. Sometimes it works, even quite early in the game. Other times it doesn't, and you're boned

Fortunate again that he didn't settle in your direction early on (perhaps the city in HIS face helped), so you were able to settle the corn+crabs in a good spot. It's a fantastic city with a lighthouse, and with that location you also have a few hammers.

Tiny detail, but why haven't you cottaged the spice that is in reach of your capital? I get that it feels like a waste if calendar is near, but that presumably wasn't the case here.

As you write, I think bulbing MC with the GM is a good option. It gives you a great tech to get into the trading game, and is good in its own right. Maybe best to keep the monopoly (?) a little while, until you get better trades from it than what you can probably get with Aesthetics anyway. Otherwise you can ofc carry out a trade mission with him. Won't get a ton of gold so early, but 700 or 900g I suppose? That will keep you at 100% for a very long while.

Pacal looks dangerous. This is what can happen when he builds a thousand wonders and also REXes well. He can become a tech mammoth. Other times I see him as tech leader with 2-3 cities. It's nuts what Deity AIs can pull off