Suggested Religion Splitting

[hotrodlincoln]

I love how many religions this mod has. One thing that always bothered me was having to go with "close enough" for the religions of certain civilizations, such as Buddhism for the Japanese.

While we are at it, why not divide "Christianity" up a bit? We already have Mormonism, which has an estimated 14 million adherents worldwide, but we lack the Roman Catholic Church, who's followers number in the /billions/, or the Eastern Orthodox Church which has an estimated 300 million followers. My suggestion is to split up Christianity into Orthodox Christianity, Roman Catholicism, and Protestantism. Protestants are, of course, heavily divided but if we put in every Protestant church we would be up to our ears in religions. Orthodox Christianity would be founded first, with Theology, Roman Catholicism would be founded with Papacy, and Protestantism would be founded with a late medieval, early rennaisance technology. Rhye's and Fall Of Europe used Printing Press, although there may be a better technology with what we have.

Islam could also be divided into Sunni and Shia. Beyond that I wouldn't divide religions any further, as these are the divides which carry the most friction with their respective followers. Protestants generally aren't too hostile towards other protestants, but historically all the various protestant churches have had problems with the Catholic church. The Catholics were themselves a breakaway from the Orthodox church, which doesn't recognize the legitimacy of any other Christian traditions save for Orthodoxy. The Sunni and Shia have warred with one another many times over their history, from the Shia Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt, to more recent troubles in Iran and Iraq.

 

[Nevets_]

I don't know if adding many more religions is a good idea, even with revolutions on there doesn't seem to be much of a downside to having 6 or 8 or 10 religions in the same city. Maybe add a religious schism quest instead?

Fires if a major religion (>10% influence) is the state religion of at least 2 civs with Divine Cult / State Church / Intolerant. All civs with one of those civics and that state religion get -relations with each other until the schism is resolved (to make it easier for the AI to have sectarian wars). You reunite your faith and complete the quest by having enough temples / cathedrals before the renaissance, (like the holy mountain quest) with the shrine counting as 4 temples. (So an good way to win would be to declare war on whoever holds the Shrine and grab it.)

Reward is you can choose to move the Holy City and Shrine to one of your cities, or you get permanent + on the state religion's temples, or if you own the Apostolic Palace you get a free Golden age.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The main difficulty is complete sets of graphics.

The other is getting religions to disappear in a way that reflects the game your are playing now rather than some set way reflecting what happened on Earth.

Btw there is a thread just for religion discussions of this type.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Sorry, I didn't see the thread, but while we're discussing it here, Rhye's and Fall of Europe had graphics for Orthodox and Protestant Christianity. Perhaps they would be willing to part with the graphics?

As far as disappearing religions go, the mod already has the religious decay option, doesn't it? I'm not sure how well it works though. I always play with it on, but my own religion of choice is always kept popular so it never fades.

 

[Praetyre]

I'm very much in favour of this idea, though with three reservations;

1: The oldest/dominant tradition should be taken as represented by the existing religion (i.e. Christianity is Catholicism and Islam is Sunni). Not only does this cut down on development, it also is more realistic in representing founding traditions.
2: Sects should require the parent religion to found (that is, you need Christianity in your city to build the Orthodoxy "wonder"). This will prove useful should I ever manage to get my own Realistic Religions module up and running.
2: Orthodoxy should actually split from Christianity, not the other way around; it was the Great Schism of 1054 that caused such a West-East division. A more modern (by which I mean post Classical) Greek leader may also be needed so that Orthodoxy is the favorite religion of more than just the Russians. The Realism Invictus mod has a Great Schism tech to handle this, and I've seen working versions of Orthodoxy in other mods as well.

Also, one potentially odd issue might be where the Anglicans sit; are they basically Christianity with State Church rather than Free Church, or a branch of Protestantism? Most religious scholars place them under the small c "catholic" categorization, and yet Britain (all parts of it) have historically had serious religious disputes with Catholics. Decisions, decisions...

 

[hotrodlincoln]

I'm not particularly interested in getting into a religious debate in the modding forums, but Orthodox Christianity should be the first, imo as the Catholic church underwent some very serious changes in belief and practice in the centuries following the schism where Orthodoxy has changed little. Ultimately the Pope's attempt to gain authority over the other Holy Sees, and the Patriarch of Constantinople's wish for the same, drove the church to split. Both churches, as we know them today, were created at the same time. In game terms, though, I feel Orthodoxy should be first as it's practices and beliefs changed the least.

I do like the idea of having a parent religion and using wonders to represent branching off beliefs, but would that properly effect diplomacy and religious spread? When you, as a catholic leader build cities in the new world and they are christianized, are they catholic as well? When those cities fall to protestant leaders, do they automatically become protestant, or do they remain catholic? Is there any way at all to tell a difference? Having the three major branches of christianity as seperate religions would probably work the best.

So far as Anglicanism, the answer is pretty simple. They are not in communion with Rome, they were founded in opposition to certain aspects of Catholic law, and have had a contentious history with the Catholics in the past. Protestant.

Anywho! It may be best for a mod to merge this thread with the existing religion discussion, as I am but a foolish n00b.

 

[Praetyre]

Are those changes you are referring to the Vatican Councils? This may be important in regards to what wavelengths we're evaluating C2C's usage of religions by.

In C2C terms, the New World colonization means Spain and to a lesser extent Portugal conquer, culturally convert and send missionaries to Aztec, Carib and Inca cities, converting them from Naghualism, Shamanism and Andeanism respectively to Catholicism/Christianity. Should, say, England take them over, they try and make them Protestant, and some of the tensions are ameliorated by virtue (no pun intended) of the fact that their religious buildings would have very similar effects and requirements.

Incidentally, I'd be interested to hear your opinions on the plan I have for adding a Realistic Religions gameoption, which would alter the religions to be more intricately linked to the culture mechanic, technology, the Great Prophets and each other;

Spoiler :

Might I suggest a synthesis of my own and Hydromancerx's religion-suggestions to solve the issue of Jerusalem Syndrome (other than Limited Religions, because that's just boring)?

In effect, each religion will be a World Wonder with one technological requirement (the same as the religion it founds) and will also require the Culture in which it was historically founded, allowing the possibility for most civs to grab religions from their own region but not for, say, Aztecs to grab Taoism without going through the effort to conquer an Asian nation (or for a historical example, the Romans with Israel). Some projects will also require other religions present in the city (only in the normal sense, one can found them without a single shrine as long as the religion is there), which are detailed below.

The project makes the city in which it is built it's Holy City. The projects will provide no other benefits than those inherently conferred in Holy City status, and would be as follows:

Andeanism: Requires Polytheism, Astronomy and Culture (Incan)
Asatru: Require Polytheism, Ship Building and Culture (Viking)
Baha'i: Requires Judaism/Christianity and Islam and Buddhism and Steam Power and Great Prophet
Buddhism: Requires Philosophy, Meditation and Culture (Indian) and Great Prophet
Christianity: Requires Judaism, Theology and Culture (Israeli) and Great Prophet
Confucianism: Requires Philosophy, Code of Laws and Culture (Chinese) and Great Prophet
Druidism: Requires Naturopathy and Culture (Celtic)
Hellenism: Requires Athletics and Culture (Greek)
Hinduism: Requires Polytheism and Culture (Indian)
Islam: Requires Judaism and Christianity, Education and Culture (Arabian) and Great Prophet
Judaism: N/A (due to having Monotheism as it's requirement, should be founded by first to build Culture (Israeli), which should also be able to be constructed by Great Prophet with the usual requirements met.
Kemetism: Requires Polytheism and StarGazing and Culture (Egyptian)
Mormonism: Requires Liberalism and Christianity and Culture (American) and Great Prophet
Naghualism: Requires Polytheism and Sacrifice Cult and Culture (Aztec)/Culture (Mayan)
Ngaiism: Requires Monotheism and Livestock Domestication and Culture (Ethiopian)
Shinto: Requires Polytheism and Paper and Culture (Japanese)
Taoism: Requires City Planning and Philosophy and Culture (Chinese) and Great Prophet
Tengriism: Requires Monotheism and Horseback Riding and Culture (Mongolian)
Voodoo: Requires Christianity and Polytheism and Fundamentalism and Culture (Zulu)
Yoruba: Requires Christianity and Music and Culture (Malinese)
Zoroastrianism: Requires Monotheism and Dualism and Culture (Persian)

Upon further reflection, I think an "Oceanian Paganism" religion or somesuch would be in order to make sure Oceania is slightly less screwed in this department than it is in most others. Might even want to split it further into Aboriginal Paganism and Polynesian Paganism varieties, not only for balance but because for some odd reason Aborigines aren't considered Polynesian (most plausible theory I've heard has them as dot-Indian, of all things).

 

[hotrodlincoln]

@Catholicism: I speak of it's entire span from the Schism onwards. Right off the bat they made changes to the Creed and the Eucharist and further changes came from there. The radicalization of the church during the time of the crusades and the consolidation of the pope's secular power make me feel it should be a later religion than Orthodoxy as well, if for no other reason than mechanically it would be a more powerful religion.

@Religion-Cultures: I rather like that idea, as the "Korean Jews" issue always bothered me greatly. It would require a lot of work to make the AI understand this mechanic, however. I don't think that the AI had been building many of the culture wonders in my last game, at least, I never saw "Culture (Hittite) has been built in a far away land!" pop up. The only one I saw the AI build was Culture (Neanderthal), because the bonuses on that building are obvious.

On some of the specific religions, though, I would personally make a few changes.

Baha'i: On the one hand, your requirements make sense as Baha'i recognizes all the prophets of those religions, but, we should look to it's real life founding. Baha'ullah learned from the other religious traditions by travelling to various countries and experiencing their religious traditions himself. Christianity and Buddhism had little to no influence in Iran at the time, and the Jews themselves would all flee in a few decades. Also, Steam Power is a bit early by a few decades, but i'm not sure what technology to use in it's place. I will come up with something better later.

Islam: Mohammed was influenced by the teachings of Judaism and Christianity, but like with Baha'ullah, those religions were not present in his homeland to an appreciable degree. Prior to his conquests, Arabia was pagan. Thus, the requirement of Christianity and Judaism being present could use some work.

Ngeiism: I can't recall, is there an in game culture for the Masai? If so, that should be the requirement, as Ethiopian culture has always very firmly embraced the Abrahamic religions (and one of the few cultures to embrace all three.)

Tengriism: I would replace Monotheism with Polytheism. Tengriism was an animistic religion which revered the Earth, Sky and Heaven as seperate beings, as well as the many, many spirits of Nature.

Voodoo: Vodun, the ancestor of new world Voodoo, was very much a West African practice. This should have a West African culture instead of Zulu, although I can't remember off the top of my head which West African cultures exist in the game. "Vodun is practised by the Ewe, Kabye, Mina and Fon peoples of southeastern Ghana, southern and central Togo, southern and central Benin and (under a different name) the Yoruba of southwestern Nigeria." -Wiki.

Yoruba: Is there a culture for Nigeria, Benin, or Togo? This is where the Yoruba people actually live. Mali is probably the closest we have, although this does bother me slightly, because although a small percentage of Malinese have followed animistic beliefs, they are more famous for their Islamic piety.

Another thought occurs to me. We should have a religious technology known as Animism, as we now have a great many religions which can not be described as Polytheistic or Monotheistic. Shamanism, Druidic Traditions, Ngeiism, Tengriism, Yoruba Belief, and Voodoo

Do you already have Shamanism, Scientology and other new religions written up as well?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@hotrodlincoln

I would not link cultures to any religion. If you want to have Hindu Aztecs or Asatru Zulus then you should be able to.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

@Praetyre: Looks like the big man has spoken here, Praetyre. If we wanted this to be a reality we would need to make our own mod-mod. I am pretty much useless in this regard as I don't know how to do anything in Python, so I would have to learn as I go along.

@Hydromancer: If I asked the Rhye's and Fall of Europe people if we could use the graphics for orthodoxy and protestantism, is there a chance we could get these religions in the game?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@Praetyre: Looks like the big man has spoken here, Praetyre. If we wanted this to be a reality we would need to make our own mod-mod. I am pretty much useless in this regard as I don't know how to do anything in Python, so I would have to learn as I go along.

@Hydromancer: If I asked the Rhye's and Fall of Europe people if we could use the graphics for orthodoxy and protestantism, is there a chance we could get these religions in the game?

Hydro is not the one who does the religion stuff I am. However as he says I would like to keep the C2C focus of allowing Jewish Polyneasian riding war mammoths if that is the way the person playing wants to go.

If we go for religions combining and splitting it needs to be more generic. If Druidism is the major religion at the time of a religious schism then it should be the one to split etc.

We have permission to use any graphics that is posted on the forums as long as we give credit. Much can be found in The World Religion mod or Rapture or JARM.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Fair enough. I didn't mean to cause any offense there, by the way. Mostly I find it jarring that Mormonism, which is an offshoot of mainstream Christianity is included, but not the offshoots which are far larger and far more influential. What are the basic ideas for the Schism mechanic? I could come up with some buildings to differentiate the schismatic branches of each religion, but I would need to know what framework we're working in here.

 

[johny smith]

You probably don't want me to chime in. But I have to say this I guess over and over. I made the stuff that RFC uses first then they tweaked the darkness I think in the orthodox set.

I made sets if you want splitting for 7 groups. Judaism, Christainity, Muslim, Iranian (Zoro and Manchaeism for example), Hindu, Buddhist, and one just for Chinese philosophies.

I did not restrict those to civilization. I did restrict thinks that culture depends on like Shinto, or Native Americans religions, Mesopotamian....and etc.

So if you guys don't like the art for the denominations...you just have to say it.

I have them clearly marked in folders, and you don't have to download the entire mod.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=353

If you cant see this your blind.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Excellent, thank you!

 

[Praetyre]

On the subject of Baha'i/Islam; how about needing contact with a civilization which has one of those religions in its cities instead, then?

Ngeiism: I can't recall, is there an in game culture for the Masai? If so, that should be the requirement, as Ethiopian culture has always very firmly embraced the Abrahamic religions (and one of the few cultures to embrace all three.)

I originally put in Ethiopian as a placeholder for East Africa; Masai can also work fine. Not aware of Muslim Ethiopians, incidentally.

Tengriism: I would replace Monotheism with Polytheism. Tengriism was an animistic religion which revered the Earth, Sky and Heaven as seperate beings, as well as the many, many spirits of Nature.

I was under the impression Tengriism was the specific worship of the sky deity Tengri, and that these other forces or beings were secondary to the core definition of the religion as a whole.

Voodoo: Vodun, the ancestor of new world Voodoo, was very much a West African practice. This should have a West African culture instead of Zulu, although I can't remember off the top of my head which West African cultures exist in the game. "Vodun is practised by the Ewe, Kabye, Mina and Fon peoples of southeastern Ghana, southern and central Togo, southern and central Benin and (under a different name) the Yoruba of southwestern Nigeria." -Wiki.

Like Ethiopia, this was because I didn't foresee the sheer variety of African cultures that would be introduced in, so I went with Zulu as a best fit, though in retrospect Mali would have made more sense for West Africa. A proper fit for it is always welcome. I assume you take no issue with it needing Christianity?

Yoruba: Is there a culture for Nigeria, Benin, or Togo? This is where the Yoruba people actually live. Mali is probably the closest we have, although this does bother me slightly, because although a small percentage of Malinese have followed animistic beliefs, they are more famous for their Islamic piety.

Ethiopia, blending etc. I can't see a culture for those peoples in the sheet, but I know Hydro has big plans for expanding the African cultures, and I think I might have seen Nigerians among them.

Another thought occurs to me. We should have a religious technology known as Animism, as we now have a great many religions which can not be described as Polytheistic or Monotheistic. Shamanism, Druidic Traditions, Ngeiism, Tengriism, Yoruba Belief, and Voodoo

Could these not be adequately encompassed by Ritualism and Mysticism?

Do you already have Shamanism, Scientology and other new religions written up as well?

I deliberately left both of these off the list. In the case of Shamanism, it was because I saw it as an open pagan option for any non-European peoples to take, despite it's predominantly Native American/Canadian influence (what do they call the non-Inuit Native Canadians anyway? They seem to be very similar to the Native Americans but they live in log cabins, not teepees).

As for Scientology, it's a New Age religion with all sorts of weird influences; there's no particular reason anybody with modern technology and a down-on-his-luck science fiction author couldn't found it. Also leaves an extra slot for non-specificity as well.

I must emphasize that this is a proposed game option, not a core feature. I just want to give people another alternative in the default/Choose/Multiple/Prophets quadfecta, one that might result in a more balanced distribution of religions between different civs with a touch of historical realism to boot. This would only restrict who could found these religions; there's nothing to stop the Israeli's founding Judaism and the Koreans subsequently being missionarized and converting in my system. Given the option to found schismatic religions requiring their parents, it just gives me a good springboard for such ideas and notions to take root.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Fair enough. I didn't mean to cause any offense there, by the way. Mostly I find it jarring that Mormonism, which is an offshoot of mainstream Christianity is included, but not the offshoots which are far larger and far more influential. What are the basic ideas for the Schism mechanic? I could come up with some buildings to differentiate the schismatic branches of each religion, but I would need to know what framework we're working in here.

Mormon is in because like Sikh and Jain someone asked me to include it. Not only that they did a great deal of the work also. The only other request I have had was recent and for Catholic which I have not gotten to yet.

You probably don't want me to chime in. But I have to say this I guess over and over. I made the stuff that RFC uses first then they tweaked the darkness I think in the orthodox set.

I made sets if you want splitting for 7 groups. Judaism, Christainity, Muslim, Iranian (Zoro and Manchaeism for example), Hindu, Buddhist, and one just for Chinese philosophies.

I did not restrict those to civilization. I did restrict thinks that culture depends on like Shinto, or Native Americans religions, Mesopotamian....and etc.

So if you guys don't like the art for the denominations...you just have to say it.

I have them clearly marked in folders, and you don't have to download the entire mod.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=353

If you cant see this your blind.

Yes, yes, yes, but unfortunately I downloaded that the day everything I touched broke. So I still have not found that Shinto missionary you rave about! I will have to do the download again since it was corrupt when it got to my machine. :sigh:

 

[hotrodlincoln]

On the subject of Baha'i/Islam; how about needing contact with a civilization which has one of those religions in its cities instead, then?

That would work!

I was under the impression Tengriism was the specific worship of the sky deity Tengri, and that these other forces or beings were secondary to the core definition of the religion as a whole.

Perhaps, although it's worth noting that the Mongols knew other Gods as well, but I suspect that calling them "Gods" is a translation convention, when those beings are probably more similiar to the Kami of Japan. Either way, Monotheism seems an odd fit to me.

Like Ethiopia, this was because I didn't foresee the sheer variety of African cultures that would be introduced in, so I went with Zulu as a best fit, though in retrospect Mali would have made more sense for West Africa. A proper fit for it is always welcome. I assume you take no issue with it needing Christianity?

I take no issue with it, as Voodoo as it was included in the module appears to be specifically New World Voodoo, as opposed to Vodun which is very similiar to Yoruba beliefs. Of course, it being New World Voodoo, it would need to be tied to new world cultures, if such things exist. Haiti comes to mind, as does Cuba and it's Santeria (similiar enough belief system for them to be under the same umbrella, I feel), or the Dominican Vudu.

Could these not be adequately encompassed by Ritualism and Mysticism?

You have a point.

I deliberately left both of these off the list. In the case of Shamanism, it was because I saw it as an open pagan option for any non-European peoples to take, despite it's predominantly Native American/Canadian influence (what do they call the non-Inuit Native Canadians anyway? They seem to be very similar to the Native Americans but they live in log cabins, not teepees).

That does seem to be the case for Shamanism. As for Canadian natives, the preferred nomenclature :wink: is First Nations or Canadian Aboriginal.

I must emphasize that this is a proposed game option, not a core feature. I just want to give people another alternative in the default/Choose/Multiple/Prophets quadfecta, one that might result in a more balanced distribution of religions between different civs with a touch of historical realism to boot. This would only restrict who could found these religions; there's nothing to stop the Israeli's founding Judaism and the Koreans subsequently being missionarized and converting in my system. Given the option to found schismatic religions requiring their parents, it just gives me a good springboard for such ideas and notions to take root.

I in particular rather like these ideas, but unless we make them ourselves I don't see them coming to fruition, as it will take a lot of work to do. The modders have more than enough on their plate as it is. Still, I love the idea, because I will confess that in some games I crack open world-builder and redistribute the religions as I see fit.

 

[Praetyre]

Perhaps, although it's worth noting that the Mongols knew other Gods as well, but I suspect that calling them "Gods" is a translation convention, when those beings are probably more similiar to the Kami of Japan. Either way, Monotheism seems an odd fit to me.

Perhaps having Mysticism for the Animist faiths would be best, though Druidism is a tad ambiguous as to whether it would fit Mysticism or Polytheism, seeing as the Druidic presence in Britain was a phenomenon of the Iron Age and that religion possesses a great many personal deities, but the Druidism religion seems to be a more simple form of Celtic animism.

I take no issue with it, as Voodoo as it was included in the module appears to be specifically New World Voodoo, as opposed to Vodun which is very similiar to Yoruba beliefs. Of course, it being New World Voodoo, it would need to be tied to new world cultures, if such things exist. Haiti comes to mind, as does Cuba and it's Santeria (similiar enough belief system for them to be under the same umbrella, I feel), or the Dominican Vudu.

I was under the impression that Vodun was a hybrid of Christian and Yoruba beliefs, with New World Voodoo being a group of various offshoots in colonies where West African slaves were taken. My knowledge of African religions rivalling only my knowledge of Aboriginal genealogy, feel free to correct me on this one.

That does seem to be the case for Shamanism. As for Canadian natives, the preferred nomenclature :wink: is First Nations or Canadian Aboriginal.

I thought the decidedly mysterious inhabitants of Australia had monopolized the term Aboriginal. Good to have an easy differential term on hand, though.

I'm actually rather tempted to use Shamanism in the same way Realism Invictus uses unique buildings to represent minor religions, with the buildings giving the same benefits as they do now but with the missionaries instabuilding or speeding them and no formal religious mechanic. Animism, as you say, is pretty much a universal human phenomena. Although some unique buildings could be in order for particular traditions, like Bora Rings for the Aborigines. You'd just need to find some way to make them nonusable/buildable if you have a State and disallow their construction under Irreligious and Atheist.

I in particular rather like these ideas, but unless we make them ourselves I don't see them coming to fruition, as it will take a lot of work to do. The modders have more than enough on their plate as it is. Still, I love the idea, because I will confess that in some games I crack open world-builder and redistribute the religions as I see fit.

The Planetfall mod has a particular building founding a new religion (and a new civ, to boot), so I don't see why the same code couldn't be applied to a C2C project. Given the only purpose of these wonders would be to found that religion and their requirements being based in existing factors in game, the only issue I think we might find would be AI, and getting buildings Great-Prophet only. Perhaps code could be reused from the Academy and/or the animal-built buildings? The need-contact-with-civ-with-religion-X-in-a-city requirement might also need something new to handle it, especially given we'd need multiple instances of such in both cases.

 

[johny smith]

http://wocrapture.svn.sourceforge.n...Assets/Modules/Rapture/Shinto.tar.gz?view=tar


can you not download that file and unrar it Dancing Hoskuld?

Shamanism was in Europe. Shamanism is a generic term coined by a wide public after someone anthropologists described some...aka simple religion.

There are plenty of different beliefs in North America not one.

Aboriginal is term that can be applied farther, but aborigines has the name attached to native Australians.

Anyway I don't have time for this, and part of the reason I do not want to mod. We spend all of the time on stereotypes. And the stupid techs have nothing to do with reality.

Whatever my opinion does not matter, we need to balance stupid stereotypes. I don't want to think about it more.

 

[hotrodlincoln]

Looking into it further, Vodun is indeed a syncretic practice which blends Christianity with native animistic beliefs. Given that in mind, it probably makes more sense to give Voodoo an African culture of origin in game than to give it to a New World culture. Of course, the game lacks a reason why it would spread to Louisiana and the Caribbean, but that's a discussion for another time. As you can tell, i'm not particularly an expert either.

Edit @ Johnny Smith: He meant Shamanism as it's presented specifically in this game. I don't think anyone here was saying that a shaman of the Tupi-Guarani has much in common with the practices of a Sami Shaman in Scandinavia. Shamanism in this game is a stand in for the Shamanic religions in this game which didn't get coded in specially, like Tengriism.