Suggestion for Manhattan Project

A1CBOZ

Prince
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
587
Ok, I may be the only one to think like this, but it strikes me as very odd that upon one nation building the Manhattan project, all nations with rocketry and uranium can build their own nukes. I would prefer that the Manhattan Project stay a wonder but also require the remaining civs to build a national wonder version ('Nuclear Weapons Program" or something) to let them join the nuclear club. And to make the Manhattan Project more valuable, other than the GP points, make nukes 33-50% cheaper for that civ. Or maybe bring back the free units from CIV 3 and have the Manhattan Project give a free nuke every so often, or a unique A-bomb that could be loaded onto a Bomber...

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:
 
personally I think there should be a national wonder like you said but also the ability to use spies to get the knowledge of nukes instead of what is here now
 
I kind of like the idea that the manhattan project unleashes nukes upon the whole world. Sort of makes it that terrible "I have created a monster" Thing as it was in history.

The other nations still need to get the techs to be able to build the nukes, its not instant for everyone.
 
I agree, but I'd make a nuclear research project as a national wonder, and if included as the manhattan project, it simply reduces cost or acts as a source of uranium, or some small enchancement.
 
Maybe I'd actually see nukes used in my games if this was the case.
 
NUCLEAR REVISIONS

1. Nukes require a Nuclear Plant in the city to be built (the infrastructure for getting weapons grade material)
2. Manhattan Project removes this requirement so you can build nukes in any city.
Change:
ICBMs require Satellites (cost 300)

Tactical Nukes require Composites increase Range to 6, and Damage to 1 tile instead of 9 (cost 200)

Increase Damage from Nuclear Attacks (75-90% Population and Buildings, bomb shelters only protect population... and slightly units)

Add:
Nuclear Bombers (Just like Bombers but with a 1 tile (not 9 tile) suicide nuclear attack and require Uranium) require Flight and Radio (cost 180)

Atom Bombs (Ground Nuclear units, move 1, have a 1 tile suicide Nuclear Attack) (cost 150)

Change:
Bunkers+Bomb Shelters should act like Walls + Castles Defense bonuses [except they Work against Gunpowder units] or possibly just reduce Collateral Damage.
[Bunkers should still give the bonus v. Air + Artillery, and Bomb Shelters still some defense v. Nukes, although not as much]

NAVAL REVISIONS:
***Needed***
If a Stealth unit is the best one for combat in a Stack (when the Stack is either attacking Or defending) then the player gets a choice whether to use that unit for combat or keep them hidden
********

Planes on a Carrier should auto-bombard if their Stack is attacked.

There should be an Air unit promotion that allows Lethal Naval Bombardment

Stealth Destroyers need to detect Subs

Bonus for Subs v. 'Capital Ships' [Carriers, Battleships and Missile Cruisers]

GENERAL DIPLOMACY ADDITION:
Popular opinion of Foreign Leaders
Each AI Civ Leader has an Opinion of every other Civ Leader
Their people should also Opinion rating of other Civ Leaders

So if CivA signs an Open Borders/Defensive Pact with CivB after being Furious with CivB for a long time, the CivA's cities should get unhappiness ("you are dealing with our enemies")
If CivA goes to War with CivC after being Friendly for a Long time, CivA should get unhappiness ("you are destroying our friends")

If CivA goes to war with CivB after being Furious for a Long time CivA gets Happiness ("you are destroying our enemies")
If CivA signs an Open Borders/Defensive Pact with CivB after being Friendly with you for a long time, CivA get Happiness ("you are dealing with our friends")

The KEY thing here is .. that should apply to both AI and Human civs.... if the AIs keep bugging you for things, your people will be happy if you attack them.

How do you know how Your people feel about another civ? You have a Leader that you chose and they have a set of AI Diplomatic modifiers. So if you chose Isabella as your leader, they will be happy to crush the Heathens, but will really protest if you attack fellow Christians, Buddhists, etc. or another civ with Theocracy.

You could then look at those modifiers, they would show up whenever were seeing how another civ felt about you, you would see how your people felt about them. [The 'people's feeling' would be the accumulation of that for multiple turns, so a declaration of war wouldn't make your people hate someone... a Long war would though]



NEW UNITS:

Bombard: Requires Gunpowder and Engineering (siege unit) [replace Catapult and Trebuchet]
Str 6 +50% v. Cities, Move 1
12% city bombardment damage (ignores Castles+Walls)
Cost 90, requires Copper or Iron

Strike Troops: Require Fiber Optics and Advanced Flight [replace Paratroopers and Marines and Explorers]
Strength 28 (OR Str 24 + Woodsman I + Guerilla I)
move 2 + Ignore move cost (OR move 1 + Commando)
Paradrop range 7, Amphibious promotion
Cost 200-220

Televangelists: Require Mass Media (and Monastery) [replace Missionaries] cost 100
act like religious ICBMs.. they don't move, just once built they can try to plant their religion in any city in the World you have visibility and Open borders with (and no Theocracy).

Executive Jets: Require Advanced Flight (and corporate office) [replace Executives] cost 180
act like corporate ICBMs.. they don't move, just once built they can pay to plant their corporation in any city in the World you have visibility and Open borders with (and no State Property/Mercantilism).

*Revised unit:
Machine Guns: Change to Gunpowder unit that Can Attack, but has +50% Defense v. Gunpowder and Mounted units, -40% Collateral Damage suffered

Let Riflemen+Grenadier upgrade to Machine Guns (the new ones that Can attack)
Let Machine Guns upgrade to Infantry, SAM Infantry, or Mech Infantry and have Infantry only upgrade to Mech Infantry
[So that getting Machine Guns OR Infantry OR SAMs will obsolete Rifles+Grenadiers]

OTHER REVISIONS:

New Leaders, to get the remaining slots:
Meji of the Japanese [Protective Organized] favors Bureaucracy
Hiawatha of the Native Americans [Charismatic Creative] favors Representation

Great Generals:
when attached to a unit, every unit in the Leader's stack has the effect of every promotion that
1. The Leader has
2. They are eligible for
3. They Don't have
so if a Longbow without CG 1 is stacked with a Leader with CG I, that Longbow gets +20% city defense
'Leadership', 'Morale', 'Tactics', and 'Combat 6' would need to be toned down or eliminated

Military Academy:
+75% Military Production, +3 culture

Walls:
Give +20% resistance to enemy spies

Great Wall:
requires Wall in city that builds it

Castle:
Obsoletes with Corporation

Serfdom:
No Maintenance

Military Science:
Required for Ambush promotion
Raises Experience cap from 10-20
Drops upgrade cost by 25%

Interception promotions require Rocketry (available to all Gunpowder+Naval(non sub/Capital ship) units)


RELIGION IMPROVEMENTS
Philosophy gives 3 Missionaries for its religion
Theology gives 5 Missionaries for its religion
Divine Right gives 5 Missionaries for its religion, and a Great Prophet


Next War Civ UNIQUE B/U (Stick with the Leader name/trait.. just get better Leader heads)

America:
UU-Improved Strike Troops: Str +4
UB-International Airport: +10% Commerce

Europe:
UU-Assault Gunship: Start with Combat 1, Do collateral Damage (10%)
UB-Mass Transit: +2 Gold per Specialist

Asia:
UU-Rocket Artillery: Ranged Bombardment capacity (Range 1, 50% normal)
UB-Security Center: +15% Production, costs +80 hammers more

South:
UU-Revolutionary: Spy moves 2, ignore move cost, has Sentry, reduced cost
UB-Biomedical Complex (Replace Hospital): +10% Food no Health Bonus
 
a national wonder would be good. Also, you should be able to use spy to "inflitrate" someone's nuke program and then you get a production bonus in your own program.
 
The way I see it, the Manhatten Project should provide the civ that builds it with a new "unit", the A-Bomb, only usable if first loaded onto a bomber. ICBMs perhaps requiring another tech after rocketry, because ICBMs did NOT just become possible after the real Manhatten Project.
 
ICBMs would be best with Satellites, Tac nukes with composites

Instead of an A-Bomb loaded onto a bomber, it would probably just be easier to have a Nuclear Bomber (does a Nuke Strike that hits one tile only, requires Flight+Radio +Uranium and Nuclear Plant )
 
ICBMs would be best with Satellites, Tac nukes with composites

Instead of an A-Bomb loaded onto a bomber, it would probably just be easier to have a Nuclear Bomber (does a Nuke Strike that hits one tile only, requires Flight+Radio +Uranium and Nuclear Plant )

Perhaps that would be neater. And it'd be as good an excuse as any to include the B-52.
Though if I had my way, A-Bombs/nuclear bombers would do the damage ICBMs do now, and ICBM/tacnuke damage would be ramped up. :nuke:
 
Why? No one did in real life.

What in blazes are you talking about?
Even the Russians who stole a lot of atomic research through espionage had to proceed with their own program and tests.
 
Here are my thoughts on the Manhattan Project. (I posted this in a different thread a week or so ago, and just copied it here.)


A change I would like to see is with the Manhattan project. I generally do not build it unless I control all the uranium, because it means using a lot of hammers to give my enemies a really powerful weapon for free. It really doesn't give the person who built it an advantage.

I think that the first nation that builds the Manhattan project should be able to built nukes, but the others have to to get that info for themselves. Additional civs could get the Manhattan project in one of three ways
  • Build it themselves - but civs should get a 25% or 50% production bonus since others have figured it out and they can use that information. I'm sure it's not as hard for North Korea or Iran to develop nukes now as it was for the U.S. because they already basically know how.
  • Steal it with spies - The Soviet Union largely learned nuclear technology through its spies. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_atomic_bomb_project)
  • Get it through trade - Lots of nations got help developing their nuclear programs, like Israel getting help from France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel)

I think these changes would not only make it more historical, but would improve gameplay. It would be more worth it to build, and would give you an advantage.

To prevent abuse, there should be penalties for using nukes too much:
  • Unhappiness - Every time you nuke a city, it should cause unhappiness in your civ, because people are angry you are nuking others and because they are afraid of retaliation. The unhappiness should last the entire war, and then slowly decrease over time. Each city nuked adds another frowny face.
  • Easier to steal - Stealing the Manhattan Project should be hard at first, but stockpiling nukes and using nukes should make it easy to steal. By easier, I mean cheaper to try and higher probability of working. The more nukes built and used, the easier it is.
  • Diplomacy hit - Nuking a civ that doesn't have nuclear technology should have an even higher diplomacy hit with the AI. It should also greatly increase the chance that the AI will use the UN to place trade restrictions on you or propose a non-nuclear treaty.

Finally, using nukes should not cause global warming. That is stupid. Too many nukes should cause nuclear winters, where a percentage of the tiles in the world lose one food for a few turns. Global warming could be an event caused by large levels of unhealthiness around the world, which could be combated by worldwide environmentalism. It should not only cause deserts, but should turn tundra into grasslands and melt ocean ice to reveal ocean. It could also randomly damage improvements on the coasts.
 
To prevent abuse, there should be penalties for using nukes too much:
  • Unhappiness - Every time you nuke a city, it should cause unhappiness in your civ, because people are angry you are nuking others and because they are afraid of retaliation. The unhappiness should last the entire war, and then slowly decrease over time. Each city nuked adds another frowny face.
  • Easier to steal - Stealing the Manhattan Project should be hard at first, but stockpiling nukes and using nukes should make it easy to steal. By easier, I mean cheaper to try and higher probability of working. The more nukes built and used, the easier it is.
  • Diplomacy hit - Nuking a civ that doesn't have nuclear technology should have an even higher diplomacy hit with the AI. It should also greatly increase the chance that the AI will use the UN to place trade restrictions on you or propose a non-nuclear treaty.

Finally, using nukes should not cause global warming. That is stupid. Too many nukes should cause nuclear winters, where a percentage of the tiles in the world lose one food for a few turns. Global warming could be an event caused by large levels of unhealthiness around the world, which could be combated by worldwide environmentalism. It should not only cause deserts, but should turn tundra into grasslands and melt ocean ice to reveal ocean. It could also randomly damage improvements on the coasts.

Nukes do cause high levels of WW (maybe not enough but they cause it)

Also Global Warming does need to be revamped (and probably renamed)
 
^^ Heh, sounds like a line right out of those "Nightmare" Civ comics.

... Anyways, I agree on this; I've always felt it was kinda weird that one civilization could do all the work, allowing EVERYONE to reap the benefit- friends, foes, people you've never even met, whomever.
 
Why? No one did in real life.

Are you serious? Every nuclear power has had to make nukes on their own, which requires their own nuclear program. Russia, France, Israel, N. Korea, and now Iran... All of them have their own nuke programs, along with stealing the info from the US or America giving it to them.
 
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