[Suggestion] Stability System to refine mechanisms and add depth

i had just spawned :p
So far I'm seeing less predictable results. In one game Arabia and France collapsed! And Cadiz claimed independence from Spain.

In the end, the system is working fine in combination with a part of the old one.
The only con is that probably it will run a bit slower

Very very cool:goodjob:
 
In my game as Arabia, I was helping my ally the Turks take Greece out, and shortly after the Turks captured Istanbul, Greece collasped. Then, for no reason I could see, the Turks collasped a few turns later in year 1350.
They had 3 cities, lost none yet, and they accomplished 1 goal (capture the bosporus).
 
Suggestion:

As a society can be represented as a huge coalition of people, we can assume that stability of such a coalition mainly depends on its profitability. All parts of system keeps together until coalition as a whole maintains profitability. But once its lose ability to produce surplus or that ability simply declines, collapse becomes inevitable. In zero sum game only way to win is take share of pie from your neighbor.
So, can you take some parameter (scores of civ, GNP – or something like that) and modify stability factor of a civ depends on growth\decline of that integral parameter? Instead of surrent complicated system you can lay simple rule: civilization must constantly grow in order to maintain its own existence. If civ’s rate of growth declines or growth stops at all, then stability falling with it. State of civ translates in how that civ earn or lose some kind of virtual «money».

Another interesting way to modify stability system is to employ some form of transportation theorem. In simplest variant, we need to estimate distance between closest government center and some predefined for each ingame era distance. Events in cities, located father away, cannot be governed in time (secession and/or huge impact on stability).

Also, you can implement more complex variant with estimation of difference in score (or production output) between core(motherland) of the empire and its provinces. In this case scores (or output) of motherland must grow faster than scores of governed provincial cities in order to maintain stability of empire (provide «common market» of empire).
For example, we need 200 scores in motherland for control 200 in province, 400 – for control of 300 and so on. That model can be expanded by taking in account local government centers rised in order to deal with distance issues. Player gets ability to prevent dissolution of empire by slowing down development of provinces, but at risk of falling behind enemies in power.
 
And you can’t get history of those parameters from the same source as Graph\Info Screen gets?

Also, what about balance in size\scores\output between capital\motherland of empire and other territories? It’s hardly to keep political power of empire at economically\infrastructuraly weak center for long.
 
In my current game as Rome, where I struggle to stay Stable, I have noticed that the most stable nation has been India. Asoka has stayed in despotism, barbarism, slavery and Organized religion and is far behind in tech. Yet he is the only civ to earn Very stable so far.

How as a builder can I develop more stability? trading?
 
ratio with capital is arguable - not every nation has a strong capital compared to the rest, such as France or England.


Not every nation has independence and not every stay far away from collapse ;(
Relatively strong infrastructure of imperial core allows compensate negative economic impact of centralization. There is no point for provinces to keep heavy burden of empire without fair economic benefits from political center. Government needs some way to prevent import replacement and secession. Its subsidizes imperial-wide system of labour division with center in «core». If industry goes away from core, empire is doomed.
Some interesting reading on topic by Jeff Vail.
 
Recently I have played a game with Arabia. I took Persia, Egypt, Carthage. Then I collapsed. Only Makkah stayed in my possession, all the other cities became independents.
Is it not possible after the collaps to get Egypt, Persia and Carthage back in the game and reduce Arabia to its core cities?
 
Hows everyone playing this already?? Is it already out?
 
Que tonto soy!:lol:

thanks
 
I have to say... The stability system is AMAZING! I love it. Playing as Germany, I saw Rome, Greece, and Persia collapse, Babylon and Egypt were already gone... It was awesome to have a game where the less influencial powers, of the historical period I was playing in, end up being reduced to independant states... Still there, just nothing to worry about... Amazing! I love it!

The only issue I have with this system is the check every turn. I understand that to keep up on the real time turn to turn changes, that this must be necessary, but it REALLY slows down the late game. As Germany, my turn times became CRAZY long in the late 1800's... Trying to load a game as America seemed to take 3 times longer than normal...

I don't know if anything can be done about it, but if I had to choose between thumbing through a magazine between turns or losing the stability system, I'll just have to buy some more subscriptions... The stability system is just genius...! I LOVE IT! (Can't say that enough...) :)
 
no, i must save them [GNP] every turn.
Is that a problem? You've only to got to store maybe 5-10 at any time.
I would be surprised if this would become a significant part of the resources (i.e. time) used by the stability system as a whole.
 
For me, that’s a way to make the game much more like race against time in RL and also provide enough transparency for stability system. “Everything is worth, what does provide growth”. Until civ exponentially progress it remains stable. Stagnation or slow growth becomes death sentence. Civs will rise and fall one after another just like market bubbles.
 
I the idea of a stability system may make of the best additions to civ games that I have seen in the last few years. But I am a little afraid that the AI wont play competitively, accounting for the stability system. Could that be the cause of the high number of collapses we’re seeing?

To me it seems that civs are collapsing too easily. Making stability dependant of continued growth may only worsen this. And make the mod less historically accurate, as there have been many empires/civilizations that were stable with little growth (at least in area), even with isolationist policies that went on for centuries (China and Japan come to mind). Other very aggressive empires have collapsed as its founder or his immediate heirs died (a number of indian and central asian empires). Others yet, like the Byzantine Empire, managed to drag its decline for centuries, without any kind of sudden collapse - what territory they lost was lost to outside enemies.

Regarding the fall of empires "from within", I believe it happened when the local elites (and all agrarian empires depended on local elites for any kind of effective rule) decided to break away from the centre. They would eventually attempt that if they realized they could extract more wealth or power for themselves (not necessarily that their region would become more wealthy) after becoming independent from the centre that they did as part of the empire, and if they believed they could get away with it. Mere economical theories err in not accounting for the fact that the fate of agrarian empires was decided by the will of the local elites (a small percentage of the population) to cooperate with or oppose the centre. Their beliefs and those of the local population, and the way they established their legitimacy to rule the local population, might be much more important than the wealth of the region and trade relations they had with the rest of the empire.
Often the idea of the empire, and its law, survived in the conscience of the population the disappearance of central rule (western roman empire, China in a number of occasions, the arab caliphate, etc.). Separation was decided and carried out “from above” (not above as in the political centre of the empire, bus as in the political regional centres).

A historically accurate stability system would have to account for this (local economic and social conditions in the various regions of the empire), not just aggregate growth. This is, of course, impossible. So, as a best approach, I like the suggestion, by Guest01 in post #43, that differences in score between the core (capital ?) and the provinces (other cities? Newer cities? Cities farther from the capital than a certain average?) might be taken into account (if that is possible, of course!). Richer regions are more likely to secede successfully. Perhaps the existence of different religions could also be taken into account – religious controversies at least hastened the demise of many empires (HRE, Byzantine).

Another interesting think to take into account might be size. Distance from the capital, by itself, was not a big problem for empires. The problems distance posed were in the exercise of “cultural influence” by the centre over the more distant regions (needed to maintain some cultural cohesion within the empire) and in sending (and controlling) bureaucrats and military units from the capital to these regions. Both were much, much, harder to do in overseas territories than in contiguous lands. That’s the reason Russia and the US kept and annexed the empires they built up to the XIX century while western european nations eventually lost theirs. So territories not connected by land could have a higher likeliness to become independent that those connected.

I realize most of this would only be useful in deciding what cities should become independent in the event of a collapse, not the collapse itself, and I don’t know if it is possible at all to implement any of it.
 
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