A simple question: has Frederick II aka Stupor Mundi a worthy place in the mod? Was he included anywhere, such as great people or civ-specific ranking lists? If not, I think it's a huge absence.
Suggestions and Requests
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
He's in the victory rankings for Holy Rome, but as far as I know that's it. Maybe he should be added as a Great General for Holy Rome, there are very few medieval ones at the moment.
I have a 2 end game suggestions that are meant to prevent the third American UHV from being painfully easy. I have played too many America games to be healthy and have found a bit of a "cheat code" for UHV3 that could use a plug. Specifically, I've found that right now a bit of an America UHV3 cheat code is to build nothing but ICBMs between 1950 and 1989 and then nuke everybody (particularly Russia, England, Japan, and/or Germany) to get 75% of the military and economy right before 1990. I think this kind of goes against the spirit of the UHV which should be to "vassalize" America's modern day allies (ala post-WW2 NATO / Japan) and collapse its rival's empires without causing Armageddon.
Building on this, I've noticed two flaws in AI behavior that makes the ICBM spam strategy possible. 1. The AI never builds ICBMs and only ever builds nuclear bombers. 2. The AI is very prone to using up all their nukes on the independents / their neighbors immediately after they build them. This AI behavior leaves them without a credible nuclear deterrent when I do unleash oblivion in 1989 as America.
To prevent the American player from ICBM spamming for UHV3 (which feels a bit like a cheat / exploit to me) I had two thoughts that I'd like to humbly humbly suggest:
1. that America's last UHV be changed to the following: "Acquire 75% of the world's military and economic power without using a nuclear weapon."
2. that the AI could be hardcoded to build 50% bombers/50% ICBMs and to only use ICBMs if nuked first (if possible). That way if I nuke them in 1989, the AI can retaliate--which will somewhat negate the benefit to me of using the exploit in the first place.
Again, just two suggestions.
Not sure if the intended point of the third American UHV is to cause a massive nuking of the world or not.
Building on this, I've noticed two flaws in AI behavior that makes the ICBM spam strategy possible. 1. The AI never builds ICBMs and only ever builds nuclear bombers. 2. The AI is very prone to using up all their nukes on the independents / their neighbors immediately after they build them. This AI behavior leaves them without a credible nuclear deterrent when I do unleash oblivion in 1989 as America.
To prevent the American player from ICBM spamming for UHV3 (which feels a bit like a cheat / exploit to me) I had two thoughts that I'd like to humbly humbly suggest:
1. that America's last UHV be changed to the following: "Acquire 75% of the world's military and economic power without using a nuclear weapon."
2. that the AI could be hardcoded to build 50% bombers/50% ICBMs and to only use ICBMs if nuked first (if possible). That way if I nuke them in 1989, the AI can retaliate--which will somewhat negate the benefit to me of using the exploit in the first place.
Again, just two suggestions.
Not sure if the intended point of the third American UHV is to cause a massive nuking of the world or not.
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While I don't necessarily disagree with this, and generally agree UHVs shouldn't be achievable with cheap tactics (eg, Maya galley in Greenland)...I have a 2 end game suggestions that are meant to prevent the third American UHV from being painfully easy. I have played too may America games to be healthy and have found a bit of a "cheat code" for UHV3 that could use a plug. Specifically, I've found that right now a bit of an America UHV3 cheat code is to build nothing but ICBMs between 1950 and 1989 and then nuke everybody (particularly Russia, England, Japan, and/or Germany) to get 75% of the military and economy right before 1990. I think this kind of goes against the spirit of the UHV which should be to "vassalize" America's modern day allies (ala post-WW2 NATO / Japan) and collapse its rival's empires without causing Armageddon.
Building on this, I've noticed two flaws in AI behavior that makes the ICBM spam strategy possible. 1. The AI never builds ICBMs and only ever builds nuclear bombers. 2. The AI is very prone to using up all their nukes on the independents / their neighbors immediately after they build them. This AI behavior leaves them without a credible nuclear deterrent when I do unleash oblivion in 1989 as America.
To prevent the American player from ICBM spamming for UHV3 (which feels a bit like a cheat / exploit to me) I had two thoughts that I'd like to humbly humbly suggest:
1. that America's last UHV be changed to the following: "Acquire 75% of the world's military and economic power without using a nuclear weapon."
2. that the AI could be hardcoded to build 50% bombers/50% ICBMs and to only use ICBMs if nuked first (if possible). That way if I nuke them in 1989, the AI can retaliate--which will somewhat negate the benefit to me of using the exploit in the first place.
Again, just two suggestions.
1. American global supremacy was quite literally coronated with the detonation of two nuclear weapons.
2. It's kind of fun that you theoretically can win the global war for ideological supremacy by total nuclear destruction. Mao: "We have a very large territory and a big population. Atomic bombs could not kill all of us.", General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr. President, if you were more concerned with the American people, than with your image in the history books."
Also I think it's quite possible to achieve without nukes, the exploit is more that you try forcibly collapse civs and vassalise rather than mutual treaty.
Dracosolon
Emperor
I suspect it might be better to reconsider America's UHV entirely as the new map progresses. America has a bellicose history but the current UHV strongly encourages ahistorical conquests.
JHLee
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2013
- Messages
- 581
can we not have Natives move on the turn they spawn cos losing 6 workers to a Mahawk that appeared out of nowhere into the middle of your colony is not the most fun experience IMO
It's been a long time since i played DoC but the last time I played, natives couldn't move on the turn they spawn.
(It did happen on RFC:Europe, and it was horrible)
It's been a long time since i played DoC but the last time I played, natives couldn't move on the turn they spawn.
(It did happen on RFC:Europe, and it was horrible)
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SultanRedSnake
King
Concerning the fate of cities upon owning civ's collapse: Not sure if any distinct changes have been made to this part of the code recently, but I've recently *perceived* an increase in instances of major cities (high pop, several wonders, etc) either being assigned to Barbs or being destroyed when owning civ fully collapses. Currently re-running some autoplay to see if this happens on collapse to core and to control for cognitive bias. Two notable stand-outs include Athens and Alexandria becoming rubble more than once, though cases in which an ancient metropolis flips to Barbs doesn't fare much better instead dying a slow death. If this is by design, as always I defer to the Big Guy, though in this case I'd at least request the implementation be reviewed? I will emphasize that I can already see historical and gameplay merit in this design choice so please don't feel pressed to defend. I'm not even convinced I can make a case that amounts to more than "Seeing this happen makes me sad" yet. You're also encouraged to file this post in the "Will Respond After 1.18 Is Done" folder.
Yeah, it's not new but there is a rule that closely placed cities can get destroyed on collapse, which I think can sometimes be a bit overzealous. There are some protections against being razed like population or culture level, so I am surprised highly developed cities get destroyed. Maybe I should also introduce a check for wonders in the city.
SultanRedSnake
King
With respect I shall defend the current implementation for both balance and historical reasons. Balance-wise, I see it as a necessary limit to exploitation of NA by requiring player to invest in protection and think strategically about military/civilian deployment and infrastructure choices. Historically I view these supremely able units as the best possible way to represent the ever-looming threat of native resistance as an alternative to fully implented civs and to model the slow rate of colonial development. Otherwise, one might say NA would simply be unbalanced; too rich a prize for too little effort, and I'd even call it a chop-spam-snooze-fest.
Fortunately the spawns are predictable and subject to conditions, here's the Mohawk code and related snippets (from Barbs.py):
TBH this is the first time I've looked at the code but through experience alone I've developed techniques to mitigate if not eliminate the native threat:
- Deploy workers in groups of 6 (minimum required to build road in 1 turn on most base terrain types) with minimum 1 escort w/ at least Woodsman. Road network takes precedence over improvements/chops so workers are never more than 1-turn away nearest city.
- Additional defenders can either augment worker escorts or be deployed in various intervals to quickly reinforce or "zone out" sudden Mohawk spawns.
- The Mohawk "hot zone" will be the area in between multiple cities especially the "corridor" running NNE from the App. mountains to the Bay of Fundy (or St. John's) in which several 2nd Rings overlap. Safer areas lie on the opposite side of cities, for example N/NW of Montreal. West/Southwest of New Orleans/Mobile will almost exclusively get Dog Soldiers.
- Manually select Chop Down Forrest instead of desired Improvement icon. Build improvement after forest is cleared. I'd even recommend just mass chopping along road network to deprive Mohawks of woods and get a jump on defender production; you can then switch to improvement mode in between spawns. Pay attention to number of workers selected for a given task so all workers can finish and move on same turn without leaving stragglers or having to hold up entire group on one tile for an extra turn.
- I haven't firmly established a behavior pattern, but Mohawks seem to prefer avoiding combat in favor of undefended workers or improvements to pillage. Attacking cities seems to be the lowest priority.
SultanRedSnake
King
SultanRedSnake
King
CTRL + W, fam. Bye bye Mohawk.
Dracosolon
Emperor
Reading this reminded me that there isn't a lot of detailed guides on how to handle the early game of the colonial civs. Which is a shame since they're pretty tricky - there's just so much to build!
SultanRedSnake
King
You adorable precious nübez inspired me to crank out this lil' ditty: Colonial Civ Quick Guide
JHLee
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2013
- Messages
- 581
As a colonial civ you usually dont have the luxury to "properly" build them up, cause UHV conditions drives you pretty tight on hammers. Probably the only exception is France.
Portugal -> workers into plantation
Spain -> workers into gold/silver mines + military units
England -> Musk/Redcoats to conquer India (TC spawn is not enough IMO) & Frigates/MoW for UHV
Dutch -> I dont know how you can do their UHV tbh
Portugal -> workers into plantation
Spain -> workers into gold/silver mines + military units
England -> Musk/Redcoats to conquer India (TC spawn is not enough IMO) & Frigates/MoW for UHV
Dutch -> I dont know how you can do their UHV tbh
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JHLee
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2013
- Messages
- 581
I'm perfectly aware of the fact that I need units to guard my cities in NA and I'm fine with that.
I just don't want Mohawks (with Woodman II) to move on the turn they spawn because that quadraples the number of tiles I need to guard silmutaneously.
Is it a new bug? I have not update the version and I don't see barbs move first in my game.
I don't think it's new. I haven't looked into it yet, but if my assumption of what causing it is correct it only occurs if you switch to a different civilization during your game.
The reason is that if you start a new game you always have slot 0 and go first in the turn order. However if you switch to a different civilization that spawns during your game your slot will be whatever that civilization got assigned on spawn. The way the turn order works is that everyone with a lower slot gets to move before you. Normally that isn't a problem because everyone is doing their moves round robin style and nothing bad happens from it.
However the Natives exist from the start of the game and therefore have a very low slot number (I think it's 5) so they tend to move before most other players. This is a problem because natives receive unit spawns and unit spawns occur at the beginning of the overall turn, not their player turn. Conversely barbarians always have the very last slot and move after everyone else. So if a barbarian unit spawns at the beginning of a turn, you always get to move before it does. Meanwhile if a native unit spawns at the beginning of the turn it has a high likelihood to be able to move before you do unless you are using the originally assigned slot 0.
Again, I haven't confirmed that this is the reason but it's pretty likely. Technically it can happen with any spawn that occurs at turn start but the natives are the most common civ that receives scripted spawns and that everyone is at war with, so they're the likeliest source of this problem. I am not sure what the best solution for this problem is - maybe it is possible to give them the second to last slot instead, but I don't know if that has other negative side effects. I might need to rethink when exactly units get spawned.
The reason is that if you start a new game you always have slot 0 and go first in the turn order. However if you switch to a different civilization that spawns during your game your slot will be whatever that civilization got assigned on spawn. The way the turn order works is that everyone with a lower slot gets to move before you. Normally that isn't a problem because everyone is doing their moves round robin style and nothing bad happens from it.
However the Natives exist from the start of the game and therefore have a very low slot number (I think it's 5) so they tend to move before most other players. This is a problem because natives receive unit spawns and unit spawns occur at the beginning of the overall turn, not their player turn. Conversely barbarians always have the very last slot and move after everyone else. So if a barbarian unit spawns at the beginning of a turn, you always get to move before it does. Meanwhile if a native unit spawns at the beginning of the turn it has a high likelihood to be able to move before you do unless you are using the originally assigned slot 0.
Again, I haven't confirmed that this is the reason but it's pretty likely. Technically it can happen with any spawn that occurs at turn start but the natives are the most common civ that receives scripted spawns and that everyone is at war with, so they're the likeliest source of this problem. I am not sure what the best solution for this problem is - maybe it is possible to give them the second to last slot instead, but I don't know if that has other negative side effects. I might need to rethink when exactly units get spawned.
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