SUN WU TZU's ART OF WAR for CIV IV

Emperor2

Capitalist Missionary
Joined
Dec 27, 2006
Messages
916
Location
Capitalist Paradise
I was reading my Sun Wu Tzu’s Art of War, with the intention of finding passages that could be applied to Civilization IV, and I think I found some good ones. All of these are altered by me, but from the statements translated in the Thomas Cleary Shambhala edition. It is a wonderful edition, and anyone planning on reading it should buy this edition. I do realize that the entire book is on this site, but I just found these to be the best for the game.

“War is the Way of the state. It is the Ground of Life and Death, the way of survival or destructions, so it is important to examine it.”

“The important thing in a military campaign is not persistence; It is victory.”

“The general rule for a military is to try not to destroy a nation” (this is only really applicable if you want to make the country your vassle.)

“The lowest thing to do is to lay seige to a city. That is only done at a last resort.” (once again, really can only imply if you want to make the country your vassle.)

“Invincibility is a matter of defense. Vulnerability is a matter of attacking.”

“Defense is a matter of insufficiency, while attack is a matter of surplus.”

“How can mere numbers insure you victory? They cannot.”

“To plunder a locality, divide up your troops.”

“Do not attack crack troops.”

“The considerations of the Intelligent always include both harm and benifiet.”

“An army likes high places and dislikes low places.”

“When they see an advantage and do not attack, they are weary [and not have enough troops to hold cities].

“On equal terrain, if you see an advantage, do not risk attacking their troops.”

“Those with equal momentum who over attack troops are in a rush. Those soldiers who are storng but whose leaders are weak are waiting. Those whose leaders are strong but have weak soldiers are going to fall. When leaders are angy and fight out of spite are going to fall.”

“When certain victory is known, it is appropriate to attack, regardless of anything else. When victory is not ensured, do not attack, regardless of anything else. One advances without seaking glory, retreats without fearing blame, and who only wants to serve the nation, will.”

“When you see an opening, take advantage of it immediately.”

“Take more care of your spies than any other military unit.”

“Spies are essential to military operations, and armies will depend on them for their success.”

:sniper: :spear:

Please tell me if these help. Thanks.
 
I love this book; I read it a few times in my teens. I should get a copy. Have you compared editions before getting this Shambhala translation? Can you elaborate on your recommendation? I read a translation by Griffiths, I believe was his name.
 
I love this book; I read it a few times in my teens. I should get a copy. Have you compared editions before getting this Shambhala translation? Can you elaborate on your recommendation? I read a translation by Griffiths, I believe was his name.


I have compared several editions; A denma translation, a different one and the Barnes and Noble one, as well as one or two others I barley remember. I've been reading this book for a few years now. But this one has commentary by ancint chinese generals, has the Silver Sparrow additions, Sun Bin's Art of War, and Zhuge Liang's essay on Generalship,
and Liu Ji's Lessons of war. The translation is clear and easy to read in modern english. There are also some good Translators introductions. It was really good.

This is one of my all time favorite books also.
 
Nice! Thanks for this, it's really interesting! I hope someone does a similar thing with Machiavelli too... :king:
 
Good stuff, thanks for doing this. A couple of comments:

“The general rule for a military is to try not to destroy a nation” (this is only really applicable if you want to make the country your vassle.)
I would say that this concept doesn't just apply to making another civ into your vassal.

"Not to destroy a nation" in Civ, I think, refers to the idea of not just pillaging tiles and razing cities. Those can play a part, but they should be means to an end, not ends in and of themselves, because you gain very little advantage from them besides a little gold. Your usual goal in going to war is to conquer territory. That means you'll want to keep developed tiles so they become yours, and keep decent cities so you don't waste hammers on Settlers.

“The lowest thing to do is to lay seige to a city. That is only done at a last resort.” (once again, really can only imply if you want to make the country your vassle.)
The equivalent of a siege in Civ IV would be placing your stack next to an enemy city for too many turns because you lack the strength to take it. This is wasteful. You pay through the nose for unit maintenance, and those units are vulnerable to counter-attack from the enemy. They're also not available to you if you need them for some other purpose, since they're deep in enemy territory where their mobility is reduced. If you can't take a city in one or two turns at most, don't bother. Fortify your existing gains until you have enough units to mount a successful attack.
 
THAT is absolutly brilliant. I am very impressed with your interpretation for Civ IV
 
One problem if you value spies. What if they were about to be captured, but the enemy was about to capture your last city? :p

I have the Asiapac Comic Version, Translated by Sui Yun, Illustrated by Wang Xuanming. A much lighter version, but pretty funny and still captures basic strategies. I wonder if Firaxis used Art of War as a reference? :mischief:

The hill defense bonus, spies, etc.
 
One problem if you value spies. What if they were about to be captured, but the enemy was about to capture your last city? :p
Something of a moot point, since Spies can't be captured in Civ IV except whilst in the act of sabotage or plan-stealing. Sun Tzu, I think, would therefore argue that the red-headed, pleather-clad little vixens should only be used for those purposes if the result is worth the risk of losing them and having to replace them.

Overall, though, I think Sun Tzu would be frustrated with the lack of utility Spies have in Civ IV. Granted I think they were too powerful in previous versions of Civ (in Civ II in particular), but they should have a few more uses, and there should be more mechanisms for countering them. I particularly miss being able to target specific buildings within a city for sabotage, which is very realistic.
 
Samuel B. Griffith's version of the Art of War is one of the better compact and more refinded translations compared to the older ones.

I think everything in the Art of War is applicatable to the game. =D
 
Sun Tzu would commit suicide playing civ4.
 
The essential spirit of Sun Tzu's Art of War is maximization of cost efficiency to achieve winning. This core principle is in fact applicable to any competitive situations (the Japanese businessmen are crazy about this book to gain an edge in business competition), but you have to adjust based on the exact situation where you apply the principle. Because the cost/benefit ratio of wars in real life is much higher than in the game, if Sun Tzu plays Civ 4, he will likely be a warmonger.

“The general rule for a military is to try not to destroy a nation” (this is only really applicable if you want to make the country your vassle.)

In reality, trying to destroy a nation will face tough resistance, and leads to horrible cost. In Civ 4, destroying a nation will make all your captured cities free of the cultural influence from the "motherland" and stop that stupid "we want to join our motherland" unhappiness. Sun Tzu would more than happy to finish off an enemy.

“The lowest thing to do is to lay seige to a city. That is only done at a last resort.” (once again, really can only imply if you want to make the country your vassle.)

In the original text, Sun Tzu explained that it took 3 months to build the weapons, 3 months to build the seige weapons, then at least sacrifice 1/3 of your units to break the city defence. So if there are other ways to capture the city (e.g. diplomacy, psychological warfare), go for the less costly ways. In Civ 4, catapults are cheap, have good survival rate (withdrawal), and can lower the city defence without damaging itself. There are basically no alternatives to capture a city (how often the AIs will give you a city by diplomacy?). So Sun Tzu himself will be a "cat lover" playing Civ4.

“Take more care of your spies than any other military unit.”

Sun Tzu's book keeps emphasizing the need to know your enemy well because he is fully aware of the cost of a war. A misguided war costs so much you'd rather spend more money on the intelligence system to make sure you have the right info (mm... the War vs Iraq because of some phantom weapons of mass destruction??? oops, sorry, hard to resist :lol: ). In the game, spies come very late and has v. limited capacity. In early game, converting an AI city to your state religion will let you know this city's info, open border will allow you to send in units to scout out your target's territory, in late game you can use flighter to do recon. The power ranking will give you some info about the rough military strength of your target. So most likely Sun Tzu will put conscientious effort to know his enemies using all these means. Spies are just one trivial mean only.
 
We often forget that the closest thing Civ IV has to an early spy is the Caravel. It can enter enemy territory and reveal information such as troop dispositions. Granted it's limited to waterways, but it's better than nothing. Sun Tzu would be a Caravel fan. He would also recommend keeping one or two of them handy rather than upgrading or deleting all of them, at least until actual Spies are available.
 
Plus caravels can carry scouts, explorers and missionaries too. If I still have an ancient scout still knocking around I put him on a caravel and when I discover the other continent get open borders with someone and have a "scout" around.
 
Spying can also relate to things like having a quick tour through your enemies territory using open borders, before your attack to see thing like strategic resources and defender numbers.

Also spying via Holy cities, therefore use of missionaries.
 
Back
Top Bottom