Superheroes!

[EgonSpengler]

What did Hawke say?

In an interview with Film Stage, Hawke was contrasting independent movies with big studio movies, and talking about the importance of film festivals for independents.

I’m always astonished, I’m sure you are too, [that] you can go on Apple TV now and see that Joaquin Phoenix and Gwyneth Paltrow made a movie together that I never heard of. What? And like, Matt Damon’s in a Clint Eastwood movie I never heard of? So many things get lost in the cracks and if those big names are getting lost, where are the Gattacas of right now? It might be like other art forms where it might take 50 years to curate what’s happening right now. That’s why film festivals have become so important because you guys at film festivals are like curators of, like, what does the world need to be paying attention to. What should be seen? If we didn’t have these festivals, big business would crush all these smaller movies.

Now we have the problem that they tell us Logan is a great movie. Well, it’s a great superhero movie. It still involves people in tights with metal coming out of their hands. It’s not Bresson. It’s not Bergman. But they talk about it like it is. I went to see Logan cause everyone was like, “This is a great movie” and I was like, “Really? No, this is a fine superhero movie.” There’s a difference but big business doesn’t think there’s a difference. Big business wants you to think that this is a great film because they wanna make money off of it.

Evidently he's caused a bit of a fuss around the Web (which, admittedly, isn't hard to do), but I don't think he's wrong. Hollywood jumps with both feet onto whatever is making the most money, it's what they do, but there's always someone who's learning the most axiomatic truth for the first time. Still, sometimes turning a molehill into a mountain can inspire some interesting think-pieces.

The Atlantic, "Ethan Hawke reckons with poptimism in Hollywood"
The New Yorker, "What Ethan Hawke gets wrong - and right - about superhero movies"

 

[Cutlass]

I've read that Hollywierd is pumping out some 600 movies a year. And that was before made for streaming movies. Well, if you're doing over 600 movies a year, then you pretty much have to expect that many of them are flying under the radar. And finding an audience for many of these, which may well be good, if niche, movies is going to be a challenge. This being the case, I don't know how they're making their business model work.

As an example, an actress I follow was recently doing a major fundraising effort for the completion of a biopic about Robert Maplethorpe, a controversial artist-photographer from the 80s. They got Matt Smith from Dr Who to star in it. So not a big name, but certainly not an unknown. And yet to get the film completed and into the film festival circuit was a major challenge. And I know the producer had been working to create it for some 15 years. I know about it because he's the brother of the actress I've been following, and she's been talking about it. But there's just too much out there. And too much new every year. You can criticize the major studios and theater chains for sticking with the things with the best chance at big money. But it's a business, and how much money and effort can you sink in things which have limited appeal in a market so saturated?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

600 a year is only a dozen new releases a week. Is that really such a lot?

As an aside, I'll bet Canoga Park pumps out closer to 6000 a year.

 

[Cutlass]

It's a lot more than is finding a real audience.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Can't argue that, but again, as long as you hold a budget that doesn't require a "real audience" to be profitable it's okay. I mean, if you are talking about Justice League and a 240 million domestic run ending IN THE RED and counting on 60 million in overseas/video to at least break even, then you need a seriously real audience. But if you can gross thirty domestic and hit the overseas release and video markets only needing twenty or thirty million to make a profit on your fifty budget film all you need is an imaginary audience of people who use the local theater as a way to get in out of the heat. Plenty of people are making those films and happy to do it.

 

[caketastydelish]

This sounds bad but it's honest and I thought this would be the appropriate thread to share it.

I am of the opinion that Hollywood is lazy/uncreative by recycling the same superheroes over and over. The last one I saw was avengers civil war when the good guys fought each other. I saw that in theaters, it was several years ago.

After that, I made an oath to ONLY watch superhero movies if the superhero is a completely original character, and not based off of a preexisting comic. Especially if said comic has been around for decades.

Spider-Man is the very worst offender I'm aware of. There was a spiderman trilogy that came which started when I was about 6 years old (I was born in 1991). I watched it. It was good. Then they redid it with the new guy. Fine. And I watched that entire trilogy as well. Now they're doing a third time. No thanks.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, Marvel Productions is very unlikely to develop a totally new hero rather than adapt one from their comic books. Same for DC. For another production company I'd guess it would be pretty tough to come up with something really original. Might find a different mix, like the alien from out space who is super fast meets the guy who got struck by dark matter lightning and it made him super strong meets the guy who got bitten by a radioactive snake and became super flexible, but it's hard to think of a superpower that hasn't been done or a bizarre event that has never been used as an origin before. There's just been too many comics in the past almost a century.

I mean, we've got creative people here...quick, anybody, describe a superpower that's never been done.

 

[caketastydelish]

Besides the point. There are lots of genres that can say the same thing. Even if the super power itself vaguely resembles another one you can still find originality somewhere. My point is they’re not even trying.

Even to compare to Japan, there have been countless anime’s but they keep on pumping out more.

There have been enough Romantic Comedies that you can say “nothing is original”. As with horror movies. And so on and so forth.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If you aren't going to be genuinely original you risk comparisons with an established and popular character. The biggest thing "wrong" with most efforts from DC productions is "Marvel did that already, and better." For example, every aspect of "the super alien from outer space that has god like powers, and how that impacts society on earth" that you see in any Superman movie or comic is dealt with by Marvel in the MCU with Thor...in a far more interesting way. However, Superman brings a much better established fan base, so making Superman movies seems like a good idea. But making a new super alien out of whole cloth that brings no fan base along for the ride at all is only worth the investment if you can really produce a "wow, they did that even better than Marvel, and of course DC," and that's a lot to bite off.

I should say that I think DC, in their television production branch, makes much better use of the issues of the super alien from outer space. Supergirl the CW series is, IMO, vastly superior in just about every way to any movies DC has coughed out.

 

[caketastydelish]

Well, that’s what it comes down to. People are voting with their wallets on established franchises because that’s what they want, and I’m voting with my wallet by boycotting because that’s what I want.

People like me are obviously outnumbered by people like you, but I’m doing what I feel is good for humanity. Sort of like a Super Hero.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I am of the opinion that Hollywood is lazy/uncreative by recycling the same superheroes over and over. The last one I saw was avengers civil war when the good guys fought each other. I saw that in theaters, it was several years ago.

After that, I made an oath to ONLY watch superhero movies if the superhero is a completely original character, and not based off of a preexisting comic. Especially if said comic has been around for decades.

I'm not sure that's a useful rule of thumb, if you're looking for good superhero stuff. At the very least, you'll miss some good stuff if you skip The Dark Knight or season 1 of Netflix's Daredevil just because they use characters that have been around a while.

Superhero movies not based on a comic, that I recommend:
I tend to assume that everybody has seen the original Robocop already, but in case you haven't...
The Incredibles is one of my favorite superhero movies of all time. I missed The Incredibles 2, but I heard that it was good.
I just watched Unbreakable, on Hulu. I hadn't seen it since it was in theaters, and it holds up pretty well.
Darkman was a hoot, but I haven't seen it in years. I don't know how well it holds up today, but hey, Liam Neeson is always cool. I don't recommend the sequels.
Big Hero 6 was fun.

Superhero movies based on obscure comics, that I recommend:
The Rocketeer
The Crow
The Mask
Blade and Blade 2 (I do not recommend Blade 3, which was awful except for Jessica Biel's shoulders and Parker Posey hamming it up like the world was about to end and she had nothing left to lose)
Hellboy and Hellboy II: The Golden Army
Dredd, with Karl Urban. Not Judge Dredd, with Sylvester Stallone, unless you're a Stallone nut. I'd rate it behind Cobra, Demolition Man, and Tango & Cash, but ahead of Over the Top.

Superhero series based on obscure comics characters:
The first seasons of Daredevil and Jessica Jones are both must-watches, and more than worth the one-month fee, even if you don't watch anything else and then cancel your subscription.
The first season of Legion is kind of crazy.

Netflix is doing a series based on Gerard Way's The Umbrella Academy, with Ellen Page.

Netflix also signed a production deal with Mark Millar, who wrote the comics Wanted, Kick-Ass, and Kingsman, which were all made into pretty decent movies.

Superhero movie trivia: The little kid in Unbreakable also played Doofus von Strucker in season 5 of Agents of SHIELD.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Netflix also signed a production deal with Mark Millar, who wrote the comics Wanted, Kick-Ass, and Kingsman, which were all made into pretty decent movies.

There is a reminder that set my teeth on edge. I can't argue against Kingsman as a pretty decent movie, but having recently seen Kingsman 2 I really want to. If Kingsman had never been made there would have been no Kingsman 2, and even though Kingsman was a decent movie that would be a small price to pay. It's hard right now to remember any good qualities from the first one through the thick haze of stink left by the second.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Entertainment Weekly has released some photos, part of their Captain Marvel preview issue.

Marvel's Super(wo)man?

Spoiler :

Starts with "S" and ends with "-krulls":

Spoiler :

In the early 1990s, Carol Danvers' USAF colleague has a young daughter. My crystal ball says the little girl's name is... Monica?

Spoiler :

EDIT: Bigger version of that first photo.

Spoiler :

 

[EgonSpengler]

I forgot that season 2 of Iron Fist is today. I may hold off. I can't handle another disappointment right now. Maybe I'll see how the reviews are trending.

 

[Cutlass]

I forgot that season 2 of Iron Fist is today. I may hold off. I can't handle another disappointment right now. Maybe I'll see how the reviews are trending.

I've seen a couple eps. Danny Rand is still mentally challenged.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I went ahead and watched the first few episodes. Good fight scene in the restaurant, right at the beginning, but it slammed to a halt after that. It's still hobbled by a miscast lead, and poor pacing. I've watched the equivalent of a feature film of season 2, and I can't tell you who the antagonist is or what the central conflict is, other than Davos is still angry and he really wants that bowl. The more of these Marvel Netflix series that I watch, the more I appreciate what miracles the first seasons of Daredevil and Jessica Jones were. It seems more and more apparent that the folks writing these things haven't figured out how to write for a single, 10-14-hour story (Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan over at Amazon had some problems on that score, too - the women who write for GLOW should get a raise). They also don't seem to understand how to write action/adventure stories. I mean, I'm sure it's not easy - like writing and performing comedy, action-adventure looks fluffy and juvenile, but just go ahead and try it (you ever notice that comedic actors transition to drama well, but rarely the other way around?).

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Comedy is hard. If you can make it in comedy, you can make it anywhere.

 

[Cutlass]

I went ahead and watched the first few episodes. Good fight scene in the restaurant, right at the beginning, but it slammed to a halt after that. It's still hobbled by a miscast lead, and poor pacing. I've watched the equivalent of a feature film of season 2, and I can't tell you who the antagonist is or what the central conflict is, other than Davos is still angry and he really wants that bowl. The more of these Marvel Netflix series that I watch, the more I appreciate what miracles the first seasons of Daredevil and Jessica Jones were. It seems more and more apparent that the folks writing these things haven't figured out how to write for a single, 10-14-hour story (Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan over at Amazon had some problems on that score, too - the women who write for GLOW should get a raise). They also don't seem to understand how to write action/adventure stories. I mean, I'm sure it's not easy - like writing and performing comedy, action-adventure looks fluffy and juvenile, but just go ahead and try it (you ever notice that comedic actors transition to drama well, but rarely the other way around?).

Yeah, it really is clear as mud. Being on the budget they're on, I'm assuming they can't get the best available writers. About 4 eps in, it just keeps getting murkier.

There's a trend in TV to make shows with deep, and often multiple, deep conspiracies behind the scenes to unravel. I think they're going there with this. Now pretty much none of the shows ever really successfully pull that off. But that doesn't stop them from trying.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Yeah, it really is clear as mud. Being on the budget they're on, I'm assuming they can't get the best available writers. About 4 eps in, it just keeps getting murkier.

I got through episode 5. It's picking up a little. I'm still reserving judgment, but something is starting to happen. It could have happened a lot sooner, they wasted a lot of the viewer's time in these first few eps, but spilled milk, I guess. It's like when you're waiting for a bus: You've already waited 15 minutes. If you walk away now, all you've done is waste those 15 minutes. Do you keep waiting? The bus may never arrive, or it may arrive in another 2 minutes. Either way, you can't get those 15 minutes back.

I accidentally read a spoiler that, funnily enough, makes me want to continue watching, and may even point to an improved 3rd season, if they get one:

Spoiler :

Colleen somehow ends up with the Iron Fist. I stopped reading the article immediately, so I don't know any details. Does this mean they're swapping Finn Jones' and Jessica Henwick's roles, and will be moving forward with Colleen as the central character and Danny as the sidekick? Too soon to know, obviously, but I find the idea intriguing.

There's a trend in TV to make shows with deep, and often multiple, deep conspiracies behind the scenes to unravel. I think they're going there with this. Now pretty much none of the shows ever really successfully pull that off. But that doesn't stop them from trying.

Right, another thing that's harder than it looks.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Right, another thing that's harder than it looks.

Which in this case is pretty impressive, because it looks really hard. Screenwriters I am absolutely sure look back longingly to the good old days when any continuity from one episode to the next beyond "yeah, Gilligan still shares a tent with the Skipper and there's still seven castaways on the island" would have been a shock to the system. Multiple story arcs of varying lengths overlapping through a full season of episodes, and beyond, ramps up the difficulty really fast.