Swap Navy Movement Patters @ Resource Assignment

Gidoza

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Presently, ranged navy ships can all attack and then move, while melee navy ships end their turn when they attack.

Suggestion: When navy ships begin to cost strategic resources (namely, Ironclad with Coal and Cruiser with Iron), swap the movement behaviour of navy ships.

Explanation

Whereas in previous versions we had melee ships being able to move after attacking and ranged ships stopping after attack - I think with the advent of one-tile attacking for ranged ships like the Dromon, the switch to the current system makes lots of sense. Dromons can jump in and out and be fairly useful while not being overbearing by being able to attack too far in-land. Meanwhile, Triremes are a solid counter to Dromons and can smash them - you'll simply need more than one Dromon to deal with a Trireme. This makes sense: Dromons are support ships for invasion, while Triremes are a navy counter and help to do the final touch on a city.

However, I find that when we move to Range-2 ranged navy ships, the whole dynamic changes far, far too much. The following are the matters I am considering.

1. Cruisers (and other later ships) are faster than ships like the Dromon, and can move on Ocean - this means that they can jump into range of a city, attack, and back off, and never take any damage from a city.

2. Furthermore, the range of Cruisers enables an insane number of them to get in range of a city. The presumably well-defended naval city that only has one coastal square is a city I can still utterly crush in two turns by just rotating Cruisers - the AI doesn't have nearly the same level of intuition about this as I do. All this with 1. - that I'm not even taking damage while doing it, because I can move away.

3. The damage that an Ironclad inflicts on Cruisers and even Frigates isn't anywhere near what a Trireme inflicts on a Dromon - this means that not only does it not kill the things as quickly, but furthermore with the better range, Cruisers can easily go into a back line and keep on firing quite easily while hurt - I don't find that Ironclads do much or are something to fear when I have Cruisers around.

4. Lastly, Ironclads use the rather precious Coal, leaving no actual melee unit even available if you want to invest in city production - I think this is a reason to have Corvettes remain available for production even when Ironclads are around so melee navy ships are still available if one is short on coal.


The result of the current situation - as I observe it - is that it's absurdly easy to take down coastal cities with basically zero consequences (just one melee ship is enough for the final touch), that melee ships aren't really functioning with much effectiveness to bring down ranged ships in the later game (or at least not with that much usefulness), and that there's more Iron than Coal around generally for investment in ranged vessels anyways. These observations apply to later ships as well, like with Battleships and so on.

That said - Dromons/Triremes, Galleass/Caravels, and Frigates/Corvettes all seem quite fine in their movement patterns, because there is always some risk involved with the ranged version of the ship (although the interaction between Frigates/Corvettes favours Frigates more than the former two instances) and that is good and makes the balance.

By swapping the movement patterns in the late game, the following kind of results would occur (reminder: this means that melee ships from Ironclad and later can move after attacking, while Cruisers and later cannot).

1. Several ranged ships can still surround a city, but their damage will be limited: this is OK, because military caps are so much higher at this point in the game, so when you take damage, you're forced to rotate ships and use your back-ups. Also adds potency to Great Admiral's healing ability.

2. You will actually take damage when assaulting a city because you stay in range for a retaliation on a regular basis.

3. Cruisers - being tougher proportionally against Ironclads than Dromons against Triremes - will remain vulnerable after their hit. If you have a wall of ranged units, two Ironclads might still not be able to drop one (or only one) - while you have twice as many retaliations coming (yes, obviously you'd want a mix of melee and ranged ideally). On the other hand, if the Ironclad doesn't have two adjacent ships when attacking - it can back off and avoid some damage. This adds potency to the Coal investment.

4. Attacking a coastal city will involve some more melee investment and rotation of ships, because the melee vessels will be looking after the matter instead; the "hit-and-run" tactic is still present, but you're always paying a little in hit points in order to do damage - nothing is free.


This strikes me as a more well-balanced perception of late-game naval warfare CBP. So while in previous versions we had one mode (melee attacks-and-moves) and now we have another mode (ranged attacks-and-moves), my suggestion is a combination of the two - early game attack-and-move is for ranged ships, while late game attack-and-move is for melee ships.

I know there's a couple details that can be polished; but you get the idea. I'm curious for your feedback. Thanks!
 
Having just played a very heavy navy game, I will agree with your concerns. There is a big jump at cruisers in terms of naval power because of the 2 range + move. In my last game I crushed a much stronger teched opponent with just a big navy, I barely had an army.

Now whether adjusting their movement is the right call. Perhaps cruisers should be weakened, or more likely ironclads strengthed...in recognition that fighting ranged 2 ships is a whole different beast from range 1 ships.
 
This is a continuation of what may be a never-ending conversation. I think the OP laid out his position really well, and that it's worth continuing the dialogue here. My first thought would be to limit the changes to strengthening later-era melee ships. I tend to win the way Stalker) did, but the AI is capable of countering. It may just need more help for its melee-heavy navies.
 
I like that idea. This change would also allow to better specialize submarines for hit-and-run tactics. Submarine need to always have 1 range thou (yeah, nuc sub is 2 - why? torpedos are short-range comparing to battleship guns or missiles). Also, Destroyers could actually hunt them, going after and hiding as well.
 
Don't Destroyers or Missle Cruisers get withdraw from Melee?

Another thing to note, is why do Ironclad get a bonus vs Cities, but not it's upgrades?
 
Do you think players might avoid upgrading into cruisers to avoid this issue? Move after attack is really powerful, I can see an argument for frigates being the better unit and finding myself very tempted to keep at least some of my ships as frigates.

Not that I necessarily disagree, just pointing out a potential issue.
 
I am strongly against losing the range movement after attack. The game is much more fun with it. Beefing up malee units is all that's needed, the same way it's all that's needed in the Classical game.
 
I am strongly against losing the range movement after attack. The game is much more fun with it. Beefing up malee units is all that's needed, the same way it's all that's needed in the Classical game.
You could still use submarines. Having actually 3 types of units: stationary strong range, melee that moves after attack and hit-and-run sub with 1-range attack. Diversity of tactics for any occasion and playstyle.
 
You could still use submarines. Having actually 3 types of units: stationary strong range, melee that moves after attack and hit-and-run sub with 1-range attack. Diversity of tactics for any occasion and playstyle.
The issue I'm seeing is this suggests that galleas should promote into submarines, which has several issues (promotion paths, and missing units in between)
 
The issue I'm seeing is this suggests that galleas should promote into submarines, which has several issues (promotion paths, and missing units in between)

Every ship converts into a submarine if you hit enough times...briefly...

G
 
The issue I'm seeing is this suggests that galleas should promote into submarines, which has several issues (promotion paths, and missing units in between)
Nope. Subs are a new line of ships, they need to be constructed as new units, just like now.
 
Nope. Subs are a new line of ships, they need to be constructed as new units, just like now.
Yes I know that. The issue I saw with an two ranged ship idea of (one ship that can move after attacking, with only one range, on ship with a longer range that cannot) is where the split happens. Because Dromon are the first type of ship, subs are the first type of ship, but they aren't the same unit line.

I do see how moving after attacking is rather excessive on cruisers and battleships. A three range unit really doesn't need this ability
 
I would say that the split would happen naturally, just like OP described. First, with dawn of cruisers and ironclads, just like RL - wooden ships go away, naval warfare changes (especially after dreadnoughts), and the game reflects that change - new type of resource is used. Then, after some time, Subs are being developed. Just like RL, they appeared in mid-20’s but got really „popular” during WWII. The game adds them in Atomic, so all fits together.
 
I would say that the split would happen naturally, just like OP described. First, with dawn of cruisers and ironclads, just like RL - wooden ships go away, naval warfare changes (especially after dreadnoughts), and the game reflects that change - new type of resource is used. Then, after some time, Subs are being developed. Just like RL, they appeared in mid-20’s but got really „popular” during WWII. The game adds them in Atomic, so all fits together.
This goes back to an issue myself and Txurce pointed out. If frigates upgraded to cruisers lose move after attacking, its a big deal. I forget what a cruisers power is, but you need a ton of extra power to make up for losing that ability. I would probably intentionally not upgrade a lot of them, and I don't see a way to be punished for doing so
 
This goes back to an issue myself and Txurce pointed out. If frigates upgraded to cruisers lose move after attacking, its a big deal. I forget what a cruisers power is, but you need a ton of extra power to make up for losing that ability. I would probably intentionally not upgrade a lot of them, and I don't see a way to be punished for doing so
I would assume that such a change is not only „type change”, some CS, RCS and promo adjustments would be needed to balance things. Frigate example is a good one.
 
I would assume that such a change is not only „type change”, some CS, RCS and promo adjustments would be needed to balance things. Frigate example is a good one.
I don't know, I really don't think a unit line should start with "can move after attacking" and then lose it upon upgrading
 
First dreadnoughts were very slow. But had big guns and armor. Just saying :)
I think this is wrong, but I don't really care to be honest because I'm talking from the perspective of gameplay. At this point I'm afraid we've rerailed the thread a bit, but to address the OP directly, I think he presents a good idea with lots of good reasons. However, I see having a unit line start with moves after attacking, and losing it on something that is supposed to be an upgrade is undesireable gameplay wise.
 
I think this is wrong, but I don't really care to be honest because I'm talking from the perspective of gameplay. At this point I'm afraid we've rerailed the thread a bit, but to address the OP directly, I think he presents a good idea with lots of good reasons. However, I see having a unit line start with moves after attacking, and losing it on something that is supposed to be an upgrade is undesireable gameplay wise.
Well, then, the problem is with range 2 on cruisers. Why don't keep it at range 1 for the whole game, like skirmishers do. Eventually, they'll get range promotion, and they get extra movement by several ways.
 
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