T2-JR6 Public Discussion Thread

[ravensfire]

Judicial Review Public Discussion Thread

donsig has requested the following Judicial Review:

I request a Judicial Review to determine which cities are in the Province of Berry. The relevant sections of the CoL are C.2.b.2 and C.2.b.3. Specifically, since no provincial borders have ever been set, are the cities of Vandelay and Vo Mimbre within the province of Berry?

The laws for which this review is conducted are:

Section C.2.b of the Code of Laws:

C. Legislature 
  2. The Congress
    b. Provincial borders shall be determined and approved 
by the Congress. 
      1. A province should contain no more than 
approximately 126 tiles 
      2. Provincial borders shall be defined well ahead of 
expansion. 
      3. When a defined province grows to 3 cities in the 
middle of an term, and no At-Large Governor exists, 
a temporary governor must be appointed by the 
President.

Also relevant to this discussion are CoL B.2.e (Minister of Internal Affairs) and CoL C.1.b (Governors).

-- Ravensfire, Chief Justice of Fanatica

 

[zorven]

I believe this is very straight forward. CoL C.2.b specifically states that provincial borders, and thus the very existance of a province, must be determined and approved by Congress. Until Congress does this, there are no cities that belong to a province as no province exists. Therefore, all cities would fall under the jurisdiction of the Interior Ministry.

 

[donsig]

In the absence of a ruling from the judiciary on this, who will the President look to for build queues - Governor Plexus or Minister DaveShack?

Have any of Governor Plexus's posted build queues been legal?

 

[zorven]

In response to donsig's questions:

Until the Judiciary rules, I plan on taking instructions from Governor Plexus for the cities of Deux Rivières, Vandelay, and Vo Mimbre, while the remaining cities will come from Minister DaveShack. My reasoning is this seems to be the division that has been followed up until this point and neither the Governor or Minister have made any objections to this allocation.

In my interpretation of the law, there have been no legal instructions from Governor Plexus simply because there is no defined province and thus should be no governor. However, I realize there are disagreements as to my interpretation. Therefore, as I mentioned above, I have followed the instructions given to me until the Judiciary decides the matter.

 

[Cyc]

The way I see it, we already have a Governor of the first Province. True we have no borders for this Province, but this means that all of our cities are in the first Province until such borderlines are approved by the Congress which would restrict the number of cities in it. This is Standard Operating Procedure for Demogames. Normally, we don't place a city as far away as Groton in hopes of getting a resource before the first Province Maps are drawn up. This game is special though. If we allow ourselves to have a Governor, then we do have a Province. If we have a Province with no borderlines, then all cities are in the first Province. I'm sure I could draw up a map that only had 126 Land tiles in it that included all 5 cities, but what's the point. Some people want Vandelay in the second Province, some people feel the same about Vo Mimbre. In the Provincial border Map I drew up, Montpellier is in Berry Province, so it's all a matter of perception. Until Congress approves the borderlines for Berry Province we are unable to determine which cities will belong the second or third Province.

 

[TerminalMan90]

Cyc's assessment seems reasonable to me. I think there is no doubt that we DO have a province and an elected governor for said province. The only thing at issue is which cites belong to that province when there are no established borders. I also think we have enough map uncovered now that we could successfully debate where those boundaries should be.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I agree with Cyc's assessment. Until such time as we actually approve borders, all cities fall into province #1 and the governor of that province

 

[donsig]

Question:

How many tiles are in the first province Cyc?

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by donsig
Question:

How many tiles are in the first province Cyc?

Approximately 126, donsig. Enough tiles to encompass all 5 cities. Or are you thinking that Fanatica would leave one of our fine five cities unprotected, undeclared, and without flying the flag of Fanatica? Obviously, as we only have one Province, all cities are in it. Obviously we have our first Province, Berry, because we've elected Plexus Governor of Berry. Our Capital City of Deux Rivieres is the Provincial Seat of that Province. It will remain that way until we get the Congress to approve borders for not only our first Province, but our second and perhaps our third, too.

Why is that so difficult to see?

 

[DaveShack]

If you think that far-flung cities like we have right now can be in the same province, then we have left a critical word out of the definition. What exactly is it which makes a province a province? Geographic continuity, that's what. Sure, there are occasionally examples of political boundaries which are not geographically contiguous, Hawaii for example, but it's easy to think of Hawaii and Michigan as contiguous if the water is included

What is not possible with our 5 cities is to include the full radius of all of them, and a corridor of land tiles spanning the gap and stay within the 126 tile boundary.

The law should be approximately 126 contiguous land tiles.

At least one city (Groton) must be outside Berry, by any reasonable approach to drawing borders.

 

[zorven]

One point I would like adress is the statemtent that we must have a province since we have elected a governor. How about the possibility that the Election Office made an error in posting an election for a governor in the first place?

Also, I see a problem with with the position that all cities are in the first province until Congress defines otherwise. What happens if Congress doesn't? Since a province has to be around 126 tiles, we will end up with each citizen deciding which cities belong in that first province and which fall under the Interior Ministry. There must be either a province defined by Congress or no provinces. There cannot be a "quasi" province as some support in this thread.

 

[Cyc]

@ zorven. Good point. I think we should also address the concern that the Election Office made an error in posting an election for a President in the first place, or any Leader postion for that that matter. Oh, wait a minute. We're supposed to have Leaders, huh. Just like we are supposed to be living in a Province. Because we are too slow in ratifying Provincial Borders doesn't mean we don't live in a Province. That would be an absurd idea.

Also, there is always a first province. It's like the first state or colony. There isn't a second until borders are approved. The people say "By God, we're going to place a city over there by that Iron, we claim that as our property." Well, of course seeing how's we have not yet thought of laying down borders, that city must go in the first Province. There is no second Province and there is no end to the first Province. There is no "quasi" Province as some in this thread acuse of claiming. There is only the first unbound first Province. Maybe if we got off our butts and had a poll, we could correct this situation.

 

[ravensfire]

Question:

We've had 1 full and 1 partial term where the Minister of the Interior has accepted the instructions of the Governor over the cities of Fanatica.

Does this demostrate the apparent creation of a province?

-- Ravensfire, Chief Justice of Fanatica

 

[zorven]

Ravensfire,

No. It demonstrates that the involved leaders either have a particular interpreation of this matter, or don't know how to interpret it and are just "going along" until the matter is settled.

Actions or inactions of Leaders cannot create a province - only an act of Congress can.

 

[Cyc]

That question doesn't really apply to this situation, ravensfire and zorven. We do not have to create the first Province, it exists naturally. We just have to restrict its bounds.

Using the logic that we have to "create" a Province, we also would have no Nation, as we have not yet set up any borders for it. WHAT? NO NATION???!!! Oh my God. We better set up some borders so we can have our Nation. We couldn't possibly have our Nation without having borders set up. What a ridiculous idea.

Of course we have our first Province. We are living in it now. We just need to define it with Provincial borders so we can resort to the redtape method of bureaucratically assigning duties to each city. Can we please just get a ruling on this or run a poll. There has to be a good reason our IA Minister hasn't run a poll yet. Is it because he doesn't want all this discussion to be for not? Let's get this taken care of.

 

[Bootstoots]

I am of the opinion that we have a province, and have had one for almost a month and a half now. We have a governor with legally binding orders, and it's now time to define the borders of our province and create new ones.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Cyc
We do not have to create the first Province, it exists naturally. We just have to restrict its bounds.

How do we restrict its bounds without an act of Congress and still stay within the 126 tile limit?

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by donsig


How do we restrict its bounds without an act of Congress and still stay within the 126 tile limit?

We don't, donsig. Notice a couple of posts up I am asking for a poll? That would be the means of getting a Provincial border plan approved and ratified. This would be the act of Congress you refer to to, I assume. This act of Congress is the only way to restrict the limits of the first Province. That is why I am asking for the IA Minister to post a poll showing the four Proposed plans for the Congress to vote on. We have had those plans proposed now for what?...4 days? This could have been taken care of by now.

 

[Cyc]

I just realized why we haven't polled the proposed borders. The IA Minister wants us to place the 6th city so he can force another isue into this Judicial Review. Six cities would take us over the 126 Land Tile cap. This would make useless the statement that all cities are legally within the first Province as the combined tiles of 6 cities would be over 126. A slick move, but I would still claim that the 6th city was in the first Province and claim the paperwork screw up on the IA Dept. It is after all their responsibility to get these things completed.

 

[zorven]

Just for the record, while I believe we have no provinces until they are created by Congress, I do not wish to invalidate any elections or remove our Governor Plexus. I would just like to see the ruling made (if according to my point of view) and a province adopted by Congress before the next election. Of, course, I then think we need to fix this in the laws so that it is on record for DG5.

Also, I don't know why we are waiting for the IA department to post a poll for provincial borders. I see that the CoL states the IA is responsible for mapping provincial borders, but Congress is the one to create them. So can't any member of Congress post the poll? I guess I don't understand what "mapping provincial borders" is supposed to mean in the CoL for the IA Minister.