T_McC03 - Guns and Bowses (Vanilla C4, Emperor)

Got it. We seem to have accomplished quite a bit with our bizarre mix of longbows and skirmishers, though I'm not convinced attacking Cordoba was worth it. I am worried about Isa getting horseback riding if we simply let her have peace now though, but we are not in a position to attack further yet. In 10 turns though, we should have some catapults.

Two civs have currency but both are 'we don't want to trade it away just yet.' Hmm. Never seen that before for Currency. I think it is to our advantage to delay the spread of alphabet (and thus other techs like horseback riding) further. Saladin is researching it, probably doesn't have it yet, but won't spread it around even when he does unless other civs have something of value to trade him.

With this in mind I do the following diplomacy:

Peace with Isa <-> IW + Monotheism
CoL + Monarchy to Saladin <-> Calendar + 20 gold

Interestingly, peace with Isa reconnects Seville to the trade network so it's not unhealthy anymore. It will build a worker, we are short of those, and this is something useful it CAN do.

I do a couple of resource trades with Saladin, think of these as reserving those resources for later when we have several silk connected and another wheat source at Madrid.



Hired a scientist at Timbuktu for now, to give us at least a chance of getting a GS instead of a GP. Academy/Philosophy would be better than settled Prophet/Theology. There is iron here, although there's a cottage on top of it for some bizarre reason.



Pre-turn show over.
 
I would consider researching litherature next.

For us Heroic Epic loook very atractive.
 
100 BC (1) - begin shuffling troops

75 BC (2) - sold Calendar to HC for 290 gold. Spend 95 of that to upgrade our 10xp skirmisher to a longbow. Isa learns theology presumably via a prophet, but stays in Organized religion. HC predictably converts to Christianity.

50 BC (3) - we get a prophet. We could learn theology with him. However, it is of absolutely no trade value now - 2 AIs have it and none of the rest are willing to do any tech trading at the moment. Saladin is likely to research it himself in the future, and the AIs are running five (!) different religions so we definitely want to remain in no state religion for now and let them fight each other. I therefore merge him as a super specialist in Timbuktu.

25 BC (4) Construction done, start on catapults. Toledo reaches size 3 and interrupts its granary for another worker, which is being chop rushed.

Tech situation:



Feud and Construction are still a monopoly, only Saladin has/is researching alphabet.

I will pause here so we can discuss our tech choices (and am out of time to play it anyway, a lot of thought and typing went into this so far.) If we just want to crank out military units I think Civil Service is the way forward, if we want to make a daring attempt at the Great Library then we can pick up literature first. I think we can start attacking again with 6-7 longbow + 2 accuracy cats that we should have at the end of my set in any case.
 
Lit would be good for the HE and NE. I wouldn't waste effort on TGL w/o marble. I don;t see it as that great a wonder for us and some more military is better. If we could get marble somehow it would be quite nice for all of these wonders but I think we want to stay aggressive until our potential targets have LB's. Who is our next target after Izzy? Louis perhaps with Huayan support. I haven't looked at current diplo situation. Madrid has to be a top target as it has the Bud. shrine.
 
I would research Literature just for heroic Epic.
Our capital still provide most of our production/economy and literature is cheap.
 
I would go for lit as well, though this has no trading value. Our capital with a prophet and that shield potential should be the military powerhouse. We can crank out dozens of cats.
I think even with the enemy having LB's we can still take their cities, given enough cats for support.

There is iron here, although there's a cottage on top of it for some bizarre reason.
:crazyeye: well, I was building it while no iron was revealed yet and the worker was more or less jobless
 
Lurker's Comment: :nono:

Your not going to be able to build musketmen and Infantry without saltpepper and rubber. :D
 
That is Vanilla civ, it took half year for it to uppear in Japan for sale anyway.
So, it is dificult to say when I for expamle will have access to it.

International shops do not sell it outside US because of stuped US software export resrictions.
You know, Computer games is a military tecnology.
 
About research. I am not sure how expencive building HE will be.
If we can trade Marble for Iron for example...., then I think it is a good idea to go after Literature, othewize it is probably not the best idea.
But it is cheap
 
Heroic Epic in Timbuktu is a good idea, but I'm not sure we should start building it until the second Spanish War is over. Without Marble it should take ~13 turns to build (200 hammers) and I think those 200 hammers are about what we'll need after uberfish's turns to finish Izzy. If Civil Service would take ~20 turns (my guess at about how we'll need to build to get enough units to finish Izzy), I would go there. But I kind of think we're looking at ~35 turns for CS.

I would not try for the Great Library because we only have one city that could build it, and we need that city to produce military. If Timbuktu tries for the GLib we almost assuredly won't have enough troops to finish Izzy this time and may have to fight Spanish Longbows in a round three to put her out of her misery. The other problem with trying for the GLib is Industrious Louis and his Marble.

The other possiblity would be Metal Casting and getting us started towards Gunpowder. It shouldn't be difficult to trade for Lit, particulary if we agree that we aren't going to build the Heroic Epic for ~20 turns.

Although I don't trust Civ IV in this regard, given the religious differences the next war should not involve us. Otherwise our next target would ideally not be able to build Knights. We'll have a real problem with Horse-based units until Rifles.

Reminder of the variant rules: We can improve the Iron tile and own (or trade) the resource, we just can't build any units requiring Iron.
 
CS is 15-16 turns depending on how I micro and we can decrease that by cottaging some more at riversides. We should have enough gold to keep deficit research up. Literature would be 4 turns.

Great library has been rightly rejected. I do not think heroic epic would benefit us for the Spanish war, it would be better to have the troops earlier for the hammers invested into it. We should be declaring immediately the 10 turns of enforced peace are up so we can disconnect Isa's horses before she gets horseback riding. We can build HE for the next war, but before we can fight the next war we need to consolidate the conquered lands anyway.

So I think we should get CS, which will provide a significant boost without needing to build anything. We can pick up literature afterwards.

I am concerned about the current lack of anywhere to run scientists that isn't polluted by prophet sources, an academy would be really useful here.
 
Actually, sorting our economy out is the fastest way to gunpowder. As opinions seem to be in favour of Civil Service by a narrow margin, we are researching it, it will take 10 more turns.

I kept Timbuktu on size 6 by hiring and firing a scientist waiting for whipping unhappiness to wear off. Nothing else happened apart from HC asking us to cancel open borders with Cyrus which I decided against (though we might want to cancel them ourselves.)

Our offensive army now consists of 6 longbow 2 cats (on the way), we can promote a couple more longbows from skirmishers for 95 gold if we choose. Isa is helpfully building plantations near Seville, wonder if we get to keep the partial construction bonus if we interrupt her to steal her worker?



Tech situation is more or less the same as the last post, except that Saladin predictably researched theology, and Currency is now available for trade, but it would cost us Construction + alphabet to HC so that trade is up for debate. It seems clear that withholding alphabet has slowed down the AI tech rate, and it's not out of the question right now that we would get literature first even after CS if we keep withholding it.

save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads12/T_McC03_AD-0125.Civ4SavedGame

with 2 bananas we could use seville as GP farm later.
 
Pre: Well first I ask Louis for his 180gp and he obliges. Nice guy. I see our relations are reasonably good with everyone except Izzy although Cyrus is the pariah. As for our military options I see that there are basically 2 choices. Wait about 10 turns for the cat and some more military to come from Timbuktu or go now with 6 LBs and 1 cat. I am thinking long and hard about this but I finally decide to go for it. Izzy has no metals and her horses are only 2 tiles away for pillaging. She has only 2 really good cities and by the time we crank more military she will have either HBR or Feudalism. 6 LBs and a cat is not great and may not be enough to take the capitol but we shall see. In the immortal words of Don Rumsfelds you fight with the military you have and not the one you want. Hopefully this goes better than his war. I am a bit worried that our boarder cities are defended only by 1 skimisher each but we have enough $$ for an emergency LB up grade. OK I am ready to go but I see we have 1 more turn on peace, No trades. We can wait a bit for currency. Iron connected and everyone has some except Izzy.

150: Peace treaty canceled and Izzy demands Feudalism. Ha Ha I laugh in her face. How about instead I take your worker and get this party started. Capture 1 worker and head him back to Timbuktu. I notice we have a cat on the way and I guess I should have waited 1 turn for him to catch up to the stack. Oh well. The sooner I knock out the horses the sooner we face only archers.

175: Louis demands we cancel deal with Persia. I do it. Persia is on the outs with everyone and I don't see why we need to keep this going. Already we get the Fear you are becomming too advanced from Louis. Oh Oh. 3 Chariots headed for Cardoba with 1 Skirmisher on flatland and no culture (will be 20% when they get there). I rush the Skirmisher I had started there and the one in the city is defense II so we should be OK. I might upgrade to LB but I prefer to keep our $$ for research/troop support.

200: Chariots avoid Cordoba. Pillage horses so we dont have to face those annoying 2 move units. Move up on Madrid. It has 3 archers and 2 chariots.

Madrid_2000000.JPG


225: Bombard Madrid. I don't know what happened to those chariots

250: Wack an exposed archer around Madrid.

275: 2 LBs beat 2 chariots on defense in the open field. Good, use those up.

300: Madrid is bombed to 0%.

325: Ouch Loose 2 LBs to chariots and archers taking 1 chariot and 1 archer along. Not good.

350: Damn Salidin has CS. We still have semi Monopoly on Alphabet. Izzy now has currency.

375: CS in and I revolt to Bureaucracy. Take Madrid for the loss of 1 cat. We had just enough. It has the Buddhist shrine making 11gpt. Also has an intact granary. It is surrounded by Spanish culture so we have to take the other cities.

400: No counter at Madrid. We have 4 LBs and 3 cats in Madrid. We have 3 LBs headed for the front. I mistakenly did 1 or 2 turns of research on paper as I often do this for trading and I have been playing too many OCC where I beeline to Edu. Sorry I was distracted by the war. Switched to Lit although Salidin has had it for a couple of turns so I don't know about the Library and nothing is invested yet. One problem is that trading opportunities are few for various reasons.

Status: Salidin is starting to run away with techs, Huayan is also in the running but has monopoly in Metal casting and Compass so won't trade. Louis is in WFYABTA but doesn't have too much. No one will declare on Sal but Louis will declare on Huayan and Huayan will stop trading with Sal. I would try to get this in any trades. I think I took 11 turns but finished Madrid campaign and round turns @ 400AD.

our_Spain0000.JPG
 
got it, tonight

so, continue to war woth Spain for 2 more cities. Are we finishing them off or do we try to extort yet another tech?
Hmm, other start to run away with techs, not surprising, we need to get them fight each other...
 
Hmm, Saladin would have 6-7 turns headstart on the great library if he had started it immediately then. Maybe it's worth trying for anyway with the great production we have at Timbuktu, we should have enough troops to defeat Isa now I think.

In any case, our economy should end up in good shape once we get all those Calendar resources in Spain online and start cottaging up (I hear Mutineer complaining already.)
 
If we can finish Izzy, we should. Leaving her with one city is fairly cheesy.

A Great Library run is a bit dubious, unless Saladin hasn't bothered building a Library already. It will likely end in a glorified "Wealth" build. Seven LBs should be enough to finish Izzy, but we should build Skirmishers to garrison the new cities and let the LBs move on ...

I'll also complain about tile improvements (before they're even made :lol: ). I think we should mix in some irrigation to make the Jungle cities more whippable. Doesn't mean we have to irrigate everything, but we'll build faster by killing our own people than by using hammer tiles.

Saladin is in a tough position, being next to the only civ that shares his religion. Even if we could get someone to declare war on Saladin they probably couldn't reach him. Would we benefit from having Louis fight Cyrus?
 
uberfish said:
In any case, our economy should end up in good shape once we get all those Calendar resources in Spain online and start cottaging up (I hear Mutineer complaining already.)

Well, I actially agree, the moment we start to work all this avalible calendar resources our economy will shot up.
And I would not complain about cottaging along the river at capital for a start.
It has enogth food and food burocracy capital would be good. Around other cities farms would be more beneficial at the moment as it let them grow fast and lets as to whipe them a bit. We would start to work all this nice calendar resources.

I think we would need mach more workers and connect calendar resource near our capital. But Issy first.

I see no problem living Isy with one city in order to extort tech if posible.
It might be not because we are at WFUBTA limit for some civs.

We probabbly should build some more skirmirshers for garnison and capital policing. War wareness show its ugly head. We could try after GL as our capital is a production powerhouse.
 
btw Salamanca is on a really bad spot with no resources whatsoever. If I can I will raze that city, it would only add misery at this moment.
 
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