T_McC03 - Guns and Bowses (Vanilla C4, Emperor)
- Thread starter T_McC
- Start date
ThERat
Deity
save
Pre-Turn
we have 7 LB's around and 3 cat, they are mostly healing in Madrid
use cat to kill a lone archer
MM a little and lit drops to 4 turns
1. 425AD
Saladin demands that we change religion, but we do not do that
WW hits 2 unhappy faces now
Izzy lands an archer and chariot next to Cordoba, no choice but to upgrade the skirmisher to LB
2. 450AD
that was close, both units attack, redline the LB but lose
spot that Barca is defended by 5 archers, nuts
3. 475AD
start to moved a LB and cat towards Barca, the rest needs to heal a while longer
4. 500AD
we get lit, start drama so we can adjust the lux rate
GL would take 11 turns, so I go for it
the first banana is connected
5. 520AD
we now have 6 LB's and 3 cats in front of Barca
kill an archer next to Madrid
6. 540AD
Madrid comes online and starves badly, thus whip a monastery
attack Barca, lose 1 LB and a cat, but...
it has a lightouse and stonehenge
Izzy has 2 cities left, but we need to replenish our troops
7. 560AD
Louis suggest to exchange bananas for clams, why not
8. 580AD
defeat 2 intruders and move towards the unknown Spanish city. WW is now pop 3
9. 600AD
we get drama, go for metal next on the way to gunpowder
move next to Santiago, defended by 2 archer, we have 2 cats and 1 LB there
dyes connected as well, so we can leave lux at 0%
Seville starts library for the scientists later on
10. 620AD
Saladin want to give us currency for 190 gold and drama, no thanks
play an extra turn to finish the campaign
11. 640AD
lose another catapult,but take Santiago
we are spent for now
make peace, get theology and 20 gold from Izzy
suddenly nobody but Huayna want to trade
we could get currency and 560 gold for construction/alpha
we could also make some money selling resources, up to next player
metal is done in 4
GL in 4 as well, we might really get that
Pre-Turn
we have 7 LB's around and 3 cat, they are mostly healing in Madrid
use cat to kill a lone archer
MM a little and lit drops to 4 turns
1. 425AD
Saladin demands that we change religion, but we do not do that
WW hits 2 unhappy faces now
Izzy lands an archer and chariot next to Cordoba, no choice but to upgrade the skirmisher to LB
2. 450AD
that was close, both units attack, redline the LB but losespot that Barca is defended by 5 archers, nuts
3. 475AD
start to moved a LB and cat towards Barca, the rest needs to heal a while longer
4. 500AD
we get lit, start drama so we can adjust the lux rate
GL would take 11 turns, so I go for it
the first banana is connected
5. 520AD
we now have 6 LB's and 3 cats in front of Barca
kill an archer next to Madrid
6. 540AD
Madrid comes online and starves badly, thus whip a monastery
attack Barca, lose 1 LB and a cat, but...
it has a lightouse and stonehenge
Izzy has 2 cities left, but we need to replenish our troops
7. 560AD
Louis suggest to exchange bananas for clams, why not
8. 580AD
defeat 2 intruders and move towards the unknown Spanish city. WW is now pop 3
9. 600AD
we get drama, go for metal next on the way to gunpowder
move next to Santiago, defended by 2 archer, we have 2 cats and 1 LB there
dyes connected as well, so we can leave lux at 0%
Seville starts library for the scientists later on
10. 620AD
Saladin want to give us currency for 190 gold and drama, no thanks
play an extra turn to finish the campaign
11. 640AD
lose another catapult,but take Santiago
we are spent for now
make peace, get theology and 20 gold from Izzy
suddenly nobody but Huayna want to trade
we could get currency and 560 gold for construction/alpha
we could also make some money selling resources, up to next player
metal is done in 4
GL in 4 as well, we might really get that
SpriteSODA
Musketeer
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2005
- Messages
- 639
lurker's comment:
Nice warring! well now you should build infra and rest until you get to muskets.
Nice warring! well now you should build infra and rest until you get to muskets.
Turn 0
Traded for currency. With our amount of cities and trade routes it is 2 commerce/city.
WE got GL,
After metallocasting went paper and we have monopoly.
We have stack to take/raise last Issy city when peace expired.
Research tennetivelly set to education, in a 8 turn we will have next gp with some chances of GS, we might use it to speed up edication. Saladin really ahead in GNP.
Pleayed ohnly 8 turns to make it even and we need to decide on research.
I am if favor of chasing liberalism.
Traded for currency. With our amount of cities and trade routes it is 2 commerce/city.
WE got GL,
After metallocasting went paper and we have monopoly.
We have stack to take/raise last Issy city when peace expired.
Research tennetivelly set to education, in a 8 turn we will have next gp with some chances of GS, we might use it to speed up edication. Saladin really ahead in GNP.
Pleayed ohnly 8 turns to make it even and we need to decide on research.
I am if favor of chasing liberalism.
Not as fascinated with the Great Library, but worst case now is that we get ~300 gold from it. So that'll end well.
Not sure whether we keep Salamanca or not. I think we want a city to work the Silks S of Timbuktu, so I'm not sure how the tile assignments would work out with three cities in the same general area. There isn't a better spot to move Salamanca south, unless there's seafood in the fog.
I guess if Huyana is the last one (except Izzy) without Alphabet we should make the deal Rat mentioned.
Toledo looks like it can a little bit of everything. Three grass hills, irrigable grass by lakes, and river grass to cottage. Probably our 2nd/3rd military city after Madrid and Timbuktu.
Seville can also be a production city as it too has three hills in its radius. I like Cordoba better for GPs as it has no production tiles and thus must either be dedicated to commerce or GPs. I guess we could cottage-spam Cordoba (with a couple of irrigations to whip) and over-irrigate Seville to run specialists + production at the expense of commerce.
Barcelona looks like a commerce city, Madrid a good production city anxiously awaiting Lumbermills. Santiago only looks to be useful for production, too many plains.
Should we revolt to Serfdom? I would say yes, we need to clear all of that jungle and once we have some tiles irrigated we can go back to Slavery and kill our people for buildings.
Not sure whether we keep Salamanca or not. I think we want a city to work the Silks S of Timbuktu, so I'm not sure how the tile assignments would work out with three cities in the same general area. There isn't a better spot to move Salamanca south, unless there's seafood in the fog.
I guess if Huyana is the last one (except Izzy) without Alphabet we should make the deal Rat mentioned.
Toledo looks like it can a little bit of everything. Three grass hills, irrigable grass by lakes, and river grass to cottage. Probably our 2nd/3rd military city after Madrid and Timbuktu.
Seville can also be a production city as it too has three hills in its radius. I like Cordoba better for GPs as it has no production tiles and thus must either be dedicated to commerce or GPs. I guess we could cottage-spam Cordoba (with a couple of irrigations to whip) and over-irrigate Seville to run specialists + production at the expense of commerce.
Barcelona looks like a commerce city, Madrid a good production city anxiously awaiting Lumbermills. Santiago only looks to be useful for production, too many plains.
Should we revolt to Serfdom? I would say yes, we need to clear all of that jungle and once we have some tiles irrigated we can go back to Slavery and kill our people for buildings.
ok, we need to send out a couple of scouts to look around AI lands but I think:
HC is weak in land size, Cyrus has bad tech because no one will trade with him, Toku has bad tech because he will trade with no one. Saladin is a long term threat but he's at the other end of the continent. Therefore, I think we should look into fighting Louis next as he is the biggest long term threat of our neighbours and is also conducting resource trades with other AI that are preventing us from doing trades ourselves. However, the earliest we could fight him is chemistry as he is close to guilds and gunpowder himself, and knights/musketeers would have a large advantage over our longbows or muskets.
So, I think we want to target chemistry and Education is on the path there. I'm not so sure about liberalism, although if we want to stay in No state religion, free religion is clearly what we should be in.
HC is weak in land size, Cyrus has bad tech because no one will trade with him, Toku has bad tech because he will trade with no one. Saladin is a long term threat but he's at the other end of the continent. Therefore, I think we should look into fighting Louis next as he is the biggest long term threat of our neighbours and is also conducting resource trades with other AI that are preventing us from doing trades ourselves. However, the earliest we could fight him is chemistry as he is close to guilds and gunpowder himself, and knights/musketeers would have a large advantage over our longbows or muskets.
So, I think we want to target chemistry and Education is on the path there. I'm not so sure about liberalism, although if we want to stay in No state religion, free religion is clearly what we should be in.
I can't get any wars started, but I can get some trade embargoes against Saladin. Maybe that'll stir things up enough to let war break out while we watch on. Not sure how useful this would be.
I don't think it would be wise to take the diplo hit of trying to embargo Louis, we don't want him to start a war with us.
I don't think it would be wise to take the diplo hit of trying to embargo Louis, we don't want him to start a war with us.
SpriteSODA
Musketeer
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2005
- Messages
- 639
lurker's comment:
If you make a dogpiles you will end by being covered in ****
You'll bribe an AI to fight, after some turns he will ask you to join, you'll decline and he'll be mad. I advise you to wait for gunpowder.
If you make a dogpiles you will end by being covered in ****
You'll bribe an AI to fight, after some turns he will ask you to join, you'll decline and he'll be mad. I advise you to wait for gunpowder.
We could just do our GP generation for now by building hanging gardens + national epic in Timbuktu and not have to worry about running specialists in other cities.
As to city specialization, I recommend Madrid and Santiago for production because they have food specials to feed mines/waterwheels/whatever, and everything else commerce. The reason being that grassland farms are an inefficient improvement unless a city is desperately short of food, as they only net +1 food for that citizen, so the no-food-special cities should just cottage up once they've grown to size.
As to city specialization, I recommend Madrid and Santiago for production because they have food specials to feed mines/waterwheels/whatever, and everything else commerce. The reason being that grassland farms are an inefficient improvement unless a city is desperately short of food, as they only net +1 food for that citizen, so the no-food-special cities should just cottage up once they've grown to size.
Left the turn-by-turn notes at the other computer ...
Pre-turn, I traded CoL, Drama, Lit and our WM to Huyana and Toku for Huyana's WM, ~150 gold and them stopping trade with Saladin. It was too expensive to get Louis to stop trading with Sal, but he did pay us a few gold for a WM swap. Oddly, no one seemed to have scouted Sal's lands, so I would surmise his only borders are with Cyrus and Toku. I then traded Wheat to Sal for Sheep, intending to cancel the lux deal we had with him. Unfortunately the lux deal didn't expire until the end of my turns.
My rationale on the trade embargoes was that whenever I stop trading with someone (at someone else's behest), the civ I stopped trading with won't talk to me for about 50 turns. And sometimes longer. So I figured this was a sneaky way to limit Sal's tech trading partners. If we can't start wars between the AI, maybe this would serve to slow the tech pace. Of course this didn't work, as you'll be able to tell from the save. Huyana is already trading with Sal again. 
Research went Machinery (I didn't want to trade for it and speed overall tech pace) --> Guilds. Guilds isn't finished yet, but only one other civ has it. Huyana of all people. After Guilds completes we can go Education --> Gunpowder --> Liberalism (Chemistry for free). We still have a monopoly on Paper, so we should be the first to start researching Education, at least.
Timbuktu built Market --> Aqueduct --> Hanging Gardens (failed). We were about 5 turns short on the HGs and wouldn't have gotten them even if we hadn't built the Market. Not sure who built them. Timbuktu is working on the Heroic Epic now.
We got a Great Prophet
who wanted to contribute to Divine Right. I chose not to do that and Sal showed up with Islam a turn or two later. I doubt we could have had it if we had used the Prophet. So, the Prophet is just sitting outside of Timbuktu. Almost assuredly a merge, but maybe we wanted to hold off until our next pot-luck GP and start a GA.
Izzy left the building two turns after I was allowed to re-declare war. I kept her final city as there isn't a better spot to build in that area, and it makes for at least a decent fishing village. I revolted into Serfdom on the first turn so uberfish can change that if he wants. We built two more workers and captured one from the Spanish. Nine workers + Serfdom means we have started to get tile improvements ahead of population.
Obviously, no whipping. Courthouses were the primary non-capital build. Do we want our FP in Madrid? Best place for now but maybe we want to be more optimistic about future conquests and plan for it in Paris.
On the inherited IT we can re-negotiate with Toku to get a couple more gpt for our Silks, and we can cancel the Silks sale to Sally. He needs the happiness more than we need his money.
Pre-turn, I traded CoL, Drama, Lit and our WM to Huyana and Toku for Huyana's WM, ~150 gold and them stopping trade with Saladin. It was too expensive to get Louis to stop trading with Sal, but he did pay us a few gold for a WM swap. Oddly, no one seemed to have scouted Sal's lands, so I would surmise his only borders are with Cyrus and Toku. I then traded Wheat to Sal for Sheep, intending to cancel the lux deal we had with him. Unfortunately the lux deal didn't expire until the end of my turns.
My rationale on the trade embargoes was that whenever I stop trading with someone (at someone else's behest), the civ I stopped trading with won't talk to me for about 50 turns. And sometimes longer.
So I figured this was a sneaky way to limit Sal's tech trading partners. If we can't start wars between the AI, maybe this would serve to slow the tech pace. Of course this didn't work, as you'll be able to tell from the save. Huyana is already trading with Sal again. Research went Machinery (I didn't want to trade for it and speed overall tech pace) --> Guilds. Guilds isn't finished yet, but only one other civ has it. Huyana of all people. After Guilds completes we can go Education --> Gunpowder --> Liberalism (Chemistry for free). We still have a monopoly on Paper, so we should be the first to start researching Education, at least.
Timbuktu built Market --> Aqueduct --> Hanging Gardens (failed). We were about 5 turns short on the HGs and wouldn't have gotten them even if we hadn't built the Market. Not sure who built them. Timbuktu is working on the Heroic Epic now.
We got a Great Prophet
who wanted to contribute to Divine Right. I chose not to do that and Sal showed up with Islam a turn or two later. I doubt we could have had it if we had used the Prophet. So, the Prophet is just sitting outside of Timbuktu. Almost assuredly a merge, but maybe we wanted to hold off until our next pot-luck GP and start a GA.Izzy left the building two turns after I was allowed to re-declare war. I kept her final city as there isn't a better spot to build in that area, and it makes for at least a decent fishing village. I revolted into Serfdom on the first turn so uberfish can change that if he wants. We built two more workers and captured one from the Spanish. Nine workers + Serfdom means we have started to get tile improvements ahead of population.
Obviously, no whipping. Courthouses were the primary non-capital build. Do we want our FP in Madrid? Best place for now but maybe we want to be more optimistic about future conquests and plan for it in Paris.
On the inherited IT we can re-negotiate with Toku to get a couple more gpt for our Silks, and we can cancel the Silks sale to Sally. He needs the happiness more than we need his money.
Picture is an overview of our empire. Except for our capital. 
Ahh yes, the subvariant: One built city.
I figure Cordoba has enough irrigation, everything else can be cottaged. The city will have to be whipped to build anything, so being able to pull +5 fpt is always nice.
Madrid can grow next turn. Overflow and all that ... still better to grow sooner.
Santiago could use a Lighthouse. I think that leaves enough food to work all three plains hills, or the forests as a compromise between production and growth.
Salamanca can cede the grass hill to Toledo, making Toledo a nice production site. Also the reason for the futher irrigation at Toledo.
Ahh yes, the subvariant: One built city.I figure Cordoba has enough irrigation, everything else can be cottaged. The city will have to be whipped to build anything, so being able to pull +5 fpt is always nice.
Madrid can grow next turn. Overflow and all that ... still better to grow sooner.
Santiago could use a Lighthouse. I think that leaves enough food to work all three plains hills, or the forests as a compromise between production and growth.
Salamanca can cede the grass hill to Toledo, making Toledo a nice production site. Also the reason for the futher irrigation at Toledo.
Got it, will play tonight but going to raise a couple of strategic points now.
1) I would like to reopen trading with Cyrus for his 2 luxury resources, even if we get -1 -2 from some of the other civs when they demand we cancel trades, I think it's worth it since we have neither firm allies nor enemies.
2) National wonder configuration. Was thinking since no hammers are invested, maybe we could build heroic epic in Madrid instead so as to have the flexibility of two military production centres? This would leave Timbuktu open for either national epic/oxford or ironworks/oxford.
1) I would like to reopen trading with Cyrus for his 2 luxury resources, even if we get -1 -2 from some of the other civs when they demand we cancel trades, I think it's worth it since we have neither firm allies nor enemies.
2) National wonder configuration. Was thinking since no hammers are invested, maybe we could build heroic epic in Madrid instead so as to have the flexibility of two military production centres? This would leave Timbuktu open for either national epic/oxford or ironworks/oxford.
No, we can't build Knights. But these two technologies are required for Gunpowder, which is required to build, you know, every other unit we are allowed to build.Mutineer said:
Charging straight to Liberalism would have netted us a worthless free tech if we hadn't traded for numerous pre-requisites to the good techs. And I figure the less trading we do, the slower the tech pace will be since the AIs generally appear displeased with one another. Now, whether the AIs hit trading limits is an open question ...
Madrid will need Wall Street for the Shrine income, but I guess we can put the Heroic Epic elsewhere besides Timbuktu. We should probably pair Heroic Epic and West Point, so that has to factor in to deciding where we build the HE. If you want Oxford in a city, it probably shouldn't build the HE. I guess the other possiblity is West Point and Iron Works.
If/when we start trading with Cyrus we should also re-start building military. The land is essentially gone and these AIs are just looking for an algorithmic justification to start a war with us, since they appear very reluctant to throw a war to which we haven't been given an invitation. I wouldn't be suprised if we haven't built a new military unit in > 20 turns.
T_McC said:No, we can't build Knights. But these two technologies are required for Gunpowder, which is required to build, you know, every other unit we are allowed to build.
Umm you can get to chemistry through Edu w/o the guilds line which I thought was the plan as it offers better research and trading possibilities. We do need Eng. for Chemistry. IMO if a war or 2 doesn't break out soon we need to start one ourselves even if that means declaring. After you declare you can usually buy in a wlling civ for much less like 1 tech.
Going to quickly post my proposal on where to build national wonders - it's a plan for short to medium term advantage, hopefully get a couple of scientists to speed us towards chemistry and then have two troop production sites:
Timbuktu - National Epic (to use the great library synergy) + oxford + merged prophet (as we're ahead in financial improvements here)
Madrid - Heroic epic (for 2nd good military production centre) + West point or ironworks
Forbidden palace - Paris
Wall street - This is what we're giving up but we could build it at some other captured AI shrine. It comes quite late anyway.
looking for some feedback on this.
Timbuktu - National Epic (to use the great library synergy) + oxford + merged prophet (as we're ahead in financial improvements here)
Madrid - Heroic epic (for 2nd good military production centre) + West point or ironworks
Forbidden palace - Paris
Wall street - This is what we're giving up but we could build it at some other captured AI shrine. It comes quite late anyway.
looking for some feedback on this.
T_McC said:No, we can't build Knights. But these two technologies are required for Gunpowder, which is required to build, you know, every other unit we are allowed to build.
Charging straight to Liberalism would have netted us a worthless free tech if we hadn't traded for numerous pre-requisites to the good techs. And I figure the less trading we do, the slower the tech pace will be since the AIs generally appear displeased with one another. Now, whether the AIs hit trading limits is an open question ...
I hope you undestand that Education open gunpowder. One does not need guild in order to research gunpowder if one know education.
Education itself mach more helpfull to as, as it lets as to build uni our burocratic capital. There was absolutly no reason not to research education.
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