[BTS] Tall vs wide.
- Thread starter Gumbolt
- Start date
At what point did you try attacking? Seems pretty early if 40 AI units give you trouble.
Landings with oil fleet/tanks/infantry/artillery work pretty well since they can be built from powered factories and can handle anything the AI can possibly have (except nukes I guess). Downside is that you may need to jump around to squash culture (or even space) attempts.
Landings with oil fleet/tanks/infantry/artillery work pretty well since they can be built from powered factories and can handle anything the AI can possibly have (except nukes I guess). Downside is that you may need to jump around to squash culture (or even space) attempts.
I forget the exact date but 1200-1400ad.
Indians turns up with 2 stacks that were difficult to deal with. Mongols also had a 20-30 strong stack. At this point i realised i should not of captured the city. I think this will need a factory based effort as i was too slow to get fleet to Europe.
Which is why i an reviewing best early game strat so i can speed up and max science here.
They may start as noble units but by 1200ad they can tech on immortal.
Indians turns up with 2 stacks that were difficult to deal with. Mongols also had a 20-30 strong stack. At this point i realised i should not of captured the city. I think this will need a factory based effort as i was too slow to get fleet to Europe.
Which is why i an reviewing best early game strat so i can speed up and max science here.
They may start as noble units but by 1200ad they can tech on immortal.
Well, from the save you can improve at least worker management. One city is overimproved and another one has no improved tiles, no improved seafood etc. I also don't think fog busting is a good idea. Just have some axes ready to defend?
SittinDown
King
Religion can spread over ocean if you have astro. was playing a fractal map yesterday, and I was iso with hannibal, no religions. got astro - found Justin, who was in Buddism on his own island. Hinduism spread to me. I imagine Justin had Hinduism from Saladin and they'd already met, but I'm not sure if they met.
Yeah worker management not perfect. I have no horse to attack axes with chariots. The barbs are spawning spears/axes which are 50/50 odds to attack with axes. Otherwise they pillage resources which is very annoying. Barb spears/axes appear 900bc or so. Think I am missing 2 workboats one which is about to be whipped. Another which is taking longer due to where the city is. This is an early save.
I think what I have done here is not going to get me the conquest I want as science is too slow. I need to improve on this which means changing the overall strategy.
More Great wall thoughts. Settling on the plains hill further up grabs a lot more resources such as the deer and the northern corn. Where you grab all the stone/corn with no border pops.
Then the question of great wall vs rushing washington early on. The AI will settle some non ideal city sites. Plus the issue of taking the Americans down. On a plus side with GW the barbs would all head straight for the Americans. My gut was expansion was a bit slower and you hook up the silver much later. Assuming Americans don't have a warrior waiting. On a plus side you saves 7-8 gold a turn from less defenders and no fog busters. More later on when trying to grab south America, I will have to have a play around to see if attacking Americans with axes or the UU is worth it. Feels like a big distraction. Questiion is will gettinga Gspy and teching alphabet be a huge boost tech wise? If I can steal 5-6 techs maybe? Early alphabet is still not ideal.
Too tired so off to bed. Maybe I need to think about cities I didn't settle but should of. Hmmm
I think what I have done here is not going to get me the conquest I want as science is too slow. I need to improve on this which means changing the overall strategy.
More Great wall thoughts. Settling on the plains hill further up grabs a lot more resources such as the deer and the northern corn. Where you grab all the stone/corn with no border pops.
Then the question of great wall vs rushing washington early on. The AI will settle some non ideal city sites. Plus the issue of taking the Americans down. On a plus side with GW the barbs would all head straight for the Americans. My gut was expansion was a bit slower and you hook up the silver much later. Assuming Americans don't have a warrior waiting. On a plus side you saves 7-8 gold a turn from less defenders and no fog busters. More later on when trying to grab south America, I will have to have a play around to see if attacking Americans with axes or the UU is worth it. Feels like a big distraction. Questiion is will gettinga Gspy and teching alphabet be a huge boost tech wise? If I can steal 5-6 techs maybe? Early alphabet is still not ideal.
Too tired so off to bed. Maybe I need to think about cities I didn't settle but should of. Hmmm
konata_LS
Prince
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2021
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- 424
Unlike normal Pangaea or Continents map, Aztecs in Earch 18civs is close to isolation (if you eliminate Roosevelt) or semi-isolation(if you let Roose alive). Capac is unimportant with only 3 cities. Under the normal settings (always war is off), for Aztecs, "stay small before Astro" often works better than spamming cities before Astronomy.
But when you play always war, the expansion before or after Astro wouldn't make much difference, as you won't have intercontinental traderoutes anyway.
I played as Aztecs in Earth map a few times, with standard settings ("always war" is off) back in the old days when I was trying to win at Noble. Pre-build several settlers and immediate found new cities after Astro; the intercontinental traderoutes would make these new cities pay for themselves<-- that was what I did with a normal game at Noble. Things may be quite different in Always war game on Immortal. I guess in Always war, Mids is more important than GLib, as you won't get Monarchy from Capac.
Well, you have AGG axes with a cheap access to shock, so it's not 50/50 at all. The border is long which is a bit annoying, but something like 5 axes total should be enough? Maybe I'm underestimating barb activity though.
My main issue was it kills off key sites and it takes ages to capture them. I did consider a gold/copper site.
Did not attacking Americans speed up your science? On plus side Great Wall allows easy access to South America. I will focus on this more now i finished the other AW game.
True not 50/50 but sometimes the barbs ignore the fog buster and wonder round. There is so much land they could spawn from. I would rather have 99% combat odds to be sure.
The early copper gold city could solve a few barb issues with early axes. This ultimately won't speed up my science.
Would you move the capital on this map or was that a mistake?
GW feels like a much slower start.I could be about 8-10+ down on pop and a city compared to not building it. Is this really worth it compared to setting up a gold/copper city and just accepting the use of axes to kill off early barb warriors? Also the lack of border pop in the second city really slows down deer and the northern corn. French were only 5 turns off me on Great Wall. Feels like the wrong strategy here. Albeit it would hugely help with southern America. Is a much slower start better here? Need convincing.
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ArchGhost
Prince
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- Aug 2, 2016
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- 569
On immortal it is absolutely possible to snag Great Wall before Louis or Qin when playing as the Aztecs. It's usually my go-to way to play them on this map, trying for GW + Stonehenge combo, choke Rosie/steal Workers and settle out huge amount of land....but getting SH requires a LOT of luck as Louis gets it like 80% of the time if he doesn't tech Fishing first and Hatty is also very likely to get it if he doesn't. Shouldn't really be much different for an AW game as you are generally isolated as the Aztecs until 800-100AD anyway unless Mansa or Liza bolt to South America early.
There's no need to rush him though. His only metal is North of the cap which you can entirely control with choke on the hill next to it. He never settles for the copper even further North first, always goes West for Marble. Choking him will ensure he only has archers waiting in a size 6 city for like 100t. And you have a silver + nearby gold mine to support a few extra units.
Typical non-AW path is :
Settle 2N on PH, build one warrior to send to Washington to steal worker off Deer or farm to the SW of it, immediately build settler to settle on stone which just 1pops SH. Tech path Agriculture>Masonry>Wheel>Mining>BW. Build Great Wall in cap with natural hammers, stone city is only if you want to try for SH + Mids.
Always war throws a bit of a hiccup in here as you are not gonna steal a worker from Washington's Deer tile if you are at war with him. Great Wall should still be plenty doable if you go Warrior> Worker and settle in same spot though, just have to nix the stone settle which is for trying to get henge anyway (you build GW in cap and SH 1pop in the second city, 12t build, Stone only comes online for the last 4t of GW if you do things perfectly IIRC as you have to build the roads).
Get a pair of warriors on his forest hill across the river NW of Washington. Should get a couple more out before Masonry comes in.
Then build GW while heading towards BW.
When GW is done you can build settler for the stone spot to still try for Mids by T60ish completion date.
So the tech path only changes to put Wheel after BW instead, stone gets hooked up shortly after starting mids.
Add more warriors to the choke after barracks, then just prep to kill him (settle copper, roads and such)
Choke Rosie with like 4 AGG Warriors from a barracks city and you can ignore him until you take copper for axes to kill him off. I usually settle the copper+gold to the NW as my 3rd city for this purpose.
Just tested it a little and he only built ~6 archers with about 8 warriors, with more of each as roamers. Got the GW on t41or t42, Mids at 60 or 61, (SH was gone by t38, no chance without worker steal) choking him with 5 warriors and eventually an archer after I got Archery myself to garrison a forward city by the Deer+Fish to the NE for cottages moving forward. Pull back to get him to scatter units around 2-3 turns before your stack moves in, kill stragglers and move in on the cap. Overbuilt axes, final attack stack was 8 axes + 5 warriors + archer (w/3 more axes coming, killed the archers with axes first turn and wiped the city on the second turn, dead by t101 with 5 cities + mids and GW. A little bit more playing shows Currency date would still be around 125-130 not too bad for getting mids too and perfectly fine in Iso.
It's also completely possible to pants him with 3-4 AGG barracks warriors with only 2 in his cap by holding off on meeting him for as long as possible (t30ish), I've even found him with only 1 before because he likes to roam the others a lot. But this pretty much gives up GW unless the AIs are being dumb.
So what is better the 4 warrior approach and moving 2N or the GW. 4 warriors vs 8-10 axes later on and an AI capital covering key land. The double corn site looks to be a great bureau capital. On a good run you can warrior rush Americans with 4-5 warriors by 2560bc For this to work you have to pretty much avoid them. Don't let them spam warriors as you sit outside city. (Like you said)
Did some testing with GW by going 2N and you have to get there pretty early to stand any chance to grab GW. French/Egyptians always get there early. Once GW is gone French can go mids super early too. On one attempt mids was gone circa 1760bc. Americans do send warriors to your capital eventually. That can be RNG results.
If you go south and go GW it makes mids a bit harder as ideally you want the northern site first to be a production power house. The lack of border pop makes this harder. If you get too playful with Americans they can spam 8-10 warriors. If you are unlucky he has archers circa 2560bc. The marble/corn site kills my new capital. You can't leave that to 100bc or later as cottages may be too late. On a good run you want to whip Washington for a settler.
If you settle the gold/copper sites axes really do help barb wise. 2-3 axes can kill most warriors and spears. You want 99% odds as RNG is a killer. Even at 90-94% you can lose battles. Which is why agg warriors are not always great vs barb warriors.
In terms of wonders. I am torn. I think mids 100%. GLH with those 4 island cities is a big boost in comnmerce. You can have 20 cities by 400bc or so if you keep spamming settlers. Getting GLH and those early island cities can boost commerce hugely. 4x20=80 commerce with currency.
Of course expansion has a cost. Getting Hanging Gardens is tough when you beeline maths if you want to expand hard. Then it's difficult if you want MM wonder and Colossus. Difficult to get both without sacrificing expansion. Oracle is another interesting one. COL is great for a religion. If you don'yt go Oracle you stand a real chance of having no religion at all.
So far my gut says expanding heavily will be best for the economy and trying to get commerce/science from key wonders. Rexxing to 20 cities by 400bc or so means you are not running 6bpt scientists which means your science will not outpace the AI. I think getting early GS for bureau capital would also be good. So there is some debate about what wonders to cut out here. Think more could be done with fail gold on Moai. Of course doing so means less whipped settlers.
Be good to see your save.
Did some testing with GW by going 2N and you have to get there pretty early to stand any chance to grab GW. French/Egyptians always get there early. Once GW is gone French can go mids super early too. On one attempt mids was gone circa 1760bc. Americans do send warriors to your capital eventually. That can be RNG results.
If you go south and go GW it makes mids a bit harder as ideally you want the northern site first to be a production power house. The lack of border pop makes this harder. If you get too playful with Americans they can spam 8-10 warriors. If you are unlucky he has archers circa 2560bc. The marble/corn site kills my new capital. You can't leave that to 100bc or later as cottages may be too late. On a good run you want to whip Washington for a settler.
If you settle the gold/copper sites axes really do help barb wise. 2-3 axes can kill most warriors and spears. You want 99% odds as RNG is a killer. Even at 90-94% you can lose battles. Which is why agg warriors are not always great vs barb warriors.
In terms of wonders. I am torn. I think mids 100%. GLH with those 4 island cities is a big boost in comnmerce. You can have 20 cities by 400bc or so if you keep spamming settlers. Getting GLH and those early island cities can boost commerce hugely. 4x20=80 commerce with currency.
Of course expansion has a cost. Getting Hanging Gardens is tough when you beeline maths if you want to expand hard. Then it's difficult if you want MM wonder and Colossus. Difficult to get both without sacrificing expansion. Oracle is another interesting one. COL is great for a religion. If you don'yt go Oracle you stand a real chance of having no religion at all.
So far my gut says expanding heavily will be best for the economy and trying to get commerce/science from key wonders. Rexxing to 20 cities by 400bc or so means you are not running 6bpt scientists which means your science will not outpace the AI. I think getting early GS for bureau capital would also be good. So there is some debate about what wonders to cut out here. Think more could be done with fail gold on Moai. Of course doing so means less whipped settlers.
Be good to see your save.
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