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Tamar of Georgia

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by marius_kaparius, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    The Other Candidate: Georgian-Tamarian Unique Unit possibility:

    Khevsur

    This is going to take some discussion, because the term and the people are encrusted with legend and myth as well as some historical reality. The actual region of Khevsurets is a tiny area of Georgia, with a modern population of less than 4000 people. Their own stories have it that they are descendants of 'Frankish' (Western European) Crusader Knights that settled in the area after helping out in the famous Battle of Didgori against the Seljuks. At the beginning of World War One, some of them showed up to enlist wearing mail armor and carrying swords and shields with Crusader symbols on them.
    There is fragment of truth in this, in that at least 100 'Crusaders' did fight with the Georgians at Didgori, but there is no other archeological, archival, or physical evidence that Crusaders settled in Georgia, or that they specifically settled in the mountains of Khevsurets.

    On the other hand, there was a real distinction in Georgia between the mountain-dwelling groups, of which the Khevsurs were only one faction, and the 'flatlanders' on the more fertile lowlands. The lowlands did institute some sort of feudal system, and the Georgian rulers did manage to maintain a force of 'knights' - mounted armored warriors - from these people. The feudal system never got established in the hills: instead they maintained (and sociologists found elements of it still there in the late twentieth century) a much more 'democratic' governance in which leaders were elected from among leading families. They were also notorious for raiding their Islamic neighbors in the lowlands (Khevsurets is on the border of Georgia, right next to the beginning of the Islamic settlement area). In other words, very similar in local autonomy and belligerence to the Thracian hill tribes of the Classical Era or the Scottish Highlanders of the late Medieval/early Renaissance Era.

    Militarily, the characteristic 'Khevsur Warrior' was a mail-clad heavy infantryman armed with a two-handed 'broad' sword. Again, there is an almost exact parallel with the Scots 'Gallowglass' heavily-armed mercenary infantry of the late Medieval period in appearance and equipment. On rough ground, they were relatively fast-moving and the long hand weapon gave them considerable capability against even heavy enemy cavalry stumbling over the rocks. The Khevsurets and other hill country in Georgia is also absolutely covered by stone fortifications, most of them small fortified villages, towers, or fortified homes. None of these are formidable against an army, but they make moving through the country extremely difficult for anybody Unfriendly and completely pacifying the country almost impossible.

    Now, in game terms the Khevsur is a perfect equivalent to a Longswordsman, except, of course, that Civ VI has no such unit. Therefore, I suggest that the Khevsur could be a Pikeman replacement, Melee Class, melee strength 45, which means they can give Knights a run for their money on rough ground and literally chop other Civs' Pikemen, Horsemen or Horse Archers to pieces (Note to designers: could have some really nasty graphics for their Fight Animations!). The other characteristic for them might be that they start with the Alpine Promotion for faster movement in their favorite hill country.

    Another 'Unique Ability' for Georgia might be to reflect the small scale but pervasive fortifications in the hills by giving all Hills in Georgian territory an automatic Melee and Ranged combat bonus for all Georgian Units, but I think this concentrates too many Georgian Uniques in the military field.
     
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  2. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I like that unit. It sounded like they may have updated pikemen a bit already (if I understood it correctly). I feel like georgians may have had to fight horse units a lot of sense.
     
  3. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    From what I've seen so far in the Discussion/Dissection of Screenshot threads, there appears to be an Upgrade for Pikemen to Pike-and-Shot, which is a continuation of the Anti-Cavalry line.
    To avoid too many 'special rules' the Khevsur could be Anti-Cavalry instead of Melee, but this is really bending the historical unit: there just isn't any indication that Georgia ever bothered with specific Anti-Cavalry infantry units, even when fighting cavalry-heavy armies like the Seljuks and Mongols: Georgia's answer seems to have been to rely on their mountainous terrain to hamstring the cavalry and then cut them to pieces with good rough-country infantry or 'hire' a bunch of horse archers (Kipchaks) to match the enemy shooting and then smash them with a small number of good, armored cavalry of their own.

    Assuming it is done right, any Georgian Civ should have a starting bias for Hill/Mountain terrain, so a Melee unit with suitable factors and , possibly, a Combat Bonus on Hills should be enough to take the place of Pikemen for them.

    Of course, there is a photo of the Khevsurs that showed up in 1915 showing a bunch of grim-looking men in mail shirts holding rifles - now There would be a Unique Unit!
     
  4. liv

    liv Warlord

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    I think I have seen that picture - always makes me think of Stalin and his background. OK I see what you are saying about the Melee ability
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I like that idea better than the Knights, but I suggest a melee class unit, standalone in the Medieval Era. Maybe give them a combat bonus when adjacent to mountains.

    Further, research has shown that historical writings of their neighbors document the Khevsureti people and their culture prior to the Crusades, so they aren't descended from Western Crusaders. Although they may have been influenced by them.
     
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  6. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Given that researchers found that the Khevsurets' version of Orthodox Christianity included pre-Christian pagan traits (In addition to the many such found in all types of Christianity!), I'm not at all surprised that they found other 'pre-Crusades' elements in their culture.

    I like the idea of a 'stand-alone' Medieval Melee Unit for Georgia. On the one hand, it matches the Stand Alone units for a later Era for France and England/Britain, on the other hand it gives Georgia the option of building Pikemen if they find themselves in a game on a flat arid plain next to Scythia.
    Even if Georgia gets a starting terrain bias for hills, it doesn't mean much. I've found since Civ 5 that the programming of 'Terrain start bias' leaves a lot to be desired, as in having to restart Civ VI four-five times to get a Nubian start that includes any desert or flood plain tiles anywhere nearby, or in Civ V having to restart Morocco 18 times (it became a Project) to get a starting position with any desert tiles that also was within range of a Trading Partner. Much better to have Uniques that don't absolutely rely on certain types of terrain configuration.
     
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  7. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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  8. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Ah yes - as I mentioned earlier, virtually all of the 'hill districts' in Georgia like Khevsurets and Svanets for two, are covered with towers, fortified houses, fortified villages, fortified goats, etc. When I first saw them, I immediately thought of the Pele Towers, Brochs, and other tiny stone forts throughout the Scottish Highlands - something about living in stony mountains surrounded by enemies that makes people want to pile up the rocks into forts...

    None of those 'forts' are really a major impediment to an Army, but they do make it very difficult to pacify the regions or get anything useful out of them without a major military campaign. Possibly, then, a 'Svaneti Tower' UA which makes any Hill Tile in Georgian territory Impossible to Pillage?
    Or, better, a UI of 'Svaneti Tower' that can be built on any Hill tile in Georgia, gives all the Production/Food effects of a Pasture, and in addition (because they were Clan/Tribe structures) also produces one 'free' Khevsur Warrior (regular Warrior or Swordsman earlier or generic Melee Unit) on Declaration of War, who disappears when Peace comes. That would have the benefit of making Game Georgia like Historical Georgia, very tough to conquer...
     
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  9. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Definitely something to build on a hills tile. I would also have it act as a fort for unit defense like the Great Wall does however they should not be allowed to be self-adjacent. I think it should produce Faith when adjacent to Holy Sites and culture when adjacent to mountains.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  10. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    All good ideas, and having some Faith and Culture boost would move Georgia away from a military-centric set of Uniques, which is much more accurate a portrayal. Also, any Faith boost could be tied in somehow with Tamar's own Leader Attribute, which should/must have a Faith component.
    Perhaps, and these are Top Of My Head suggestions:
    1. Tamar allows you to build a Free Svaneti Tower once an Era, and that Tower has a Great Work of Religious Art slot.
    2. Tamar halves the Build Cost for all Temples and your selected Religious Building
    3. Tamar allows all your Temples to house Either a Relic or a Great Work of Religious Art.

    Of course, any judgement will probably have to wait until we see exactly how Religion and Faith interact with everything else in R & F. So far, I don't remember seeing a lot about the Religion mechanisms in any of the 'Teasers', but that doesn't mea much at this point...
     
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  11. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I was thinking that Tamar would get a boost to GWAM points during Golden Ages.

    You could also have the Svan Towers give extra Faith during Dark Ages and extra Culture during Golden Ages.
     
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  12. K4wa

    K4wa Chieftain

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    If Georgia is ever added, I think that Svan Towers are too distinct type of a building not to be a unique tile improvement. In terms of unique units, Khevsur warriors are pretty distinct with their distinctive attire, i cannot think of any other choice. I agree that Tamar should have some religious bonus tied with the golden age. Something like faith output is doubled during the Golden Age or units cost 50% less faith to purchase during the Golden age.
    I also like the idea of Georgian religious districts being different. Maybe they could incorporate in some Georgian architecture, our churches, or how we call them ეკლესია, 'Eklesia', do look a tad unique after all.
    To sum it up, I expect it to be a militaristic and religious civ, centered on self-defense rather that conquest, with the ability to pursue religious and cultural victories.
     
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  13. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    Could not have summed up a well-designed Civ VI Georgia better. Thank you!
     
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  14. Aktchyually

    Aktchyually Chieftain

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    კაცი ხარ კაცური, უეჭველად დაამატებენ.
     
  15. K4wa

    K4wa Chieftain

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    მეც მაგიტო დავრეგისტრირდი აქ, გამეტრაკებინა იქნებ ვინმეს დაენახა და დაამატონ :დ
     
  16. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    The Civ VI version of Civ V Ethiopia?
     
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  17. Aktchyually

    Aktchyually Chieftain

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    სხვებმაც რომ გაიგონ. there were some clues concerning Georgia in the trailer that you could have missed. () at 1:10 mongols are attacking a fortress and I think the defenders are Georgians, because of their distinct clothes, also fortress has many charasteristics of Georgian one for the
    comparisont - Ananuri: (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/ანანური_.jpg)
    and many others
    let's hope they will reveal it on this tuesday.
     
  18. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Chieftain

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    - Which makes perfect sense, given the similarities between the two:
    Early adopters of Christianity in otherwise non-Christian areas
    Intellectual and other links to the rest of the Christian and even Western Community (Ethiopian links have recently been confirmed by finding some of their distinctive writing in the St Catherine Monastery in the Sinai Peninsula, along wth religious and Pagan texts from Classical Rome and Greece, Arabic, Irish Latin, and Byzantine Greek)
    A distinct "Enter My Land At Your Peril" attitude in both ranging from the Georgian trouncing of the Seljuks in the 13th century to the Ethiopian trouncing of the Italians in the 19th and 20th centuries. (Footnote: Some Ethiopian soldiers in the UN forces in Korea in 1950 - 53 wore a little medal depicting a silver spear on a blue background - meaning that they had defended their homeland with a spear against invaders!)

    I watched the video (again!) for the 4th-5th time, and I really, really wish I could agree with you, but I don't see it. The fortifications are typical of every square-towered stone fort going back to the Mycenaean Greeks (although the Mycenaeans used larger 'Cyclopean' stones). Her costume (specifically the 'wrap-around' tunic and baggy trousers) is typical of every Steppe Nomad group from the Scythians to the Patzinaks - including, of course, the Kipchaks that fought for the Georgians. His armor is straight out of illustrations of the Seljuks, but is also typical of the other 'Turkic' tribes and the Persians of the 11th - 13th centuries - which, as we've discussed elsewhere in this thread, means little since armor was 'borrowed' and reused constantly: well-worked metal had no nationality.

    None of which precludes Georgia, I just don't think it's positive evidence either.
     
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  19. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    He wasn't talking about Sean Bean and daughter, but about the archers on the walls and the soldier that tried to attack Sean Bean.
     
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  20. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    If Gerogia makes it in, I think we could see a more Classical/Medieval version of Axum/Ethiopia. Trade, defensive bonus against those of another faith. Religion. The Italians weren't the only ones Ethiopia fought and beat back. They battled the Muslims around the Persian gulf throughout the middle ages.
     
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