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Tanks Obsolete?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eduardo72, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    Yeah, I think the system wouldn't be nearly as bad if you always had time to plan. So if there was one tech that revealed coal, and another that gave ironclads, you could at least see that you had no coal before going the ironclad route. Maybe if coal and niter were revealed together - then you can decide after that if you want to pursue the ironclad route, or the musket route depending on what happened to be near you. As it stands now, if you choose wrong, you can be kind of screwed.
     
  2. xDaunt

    xDaunt Chieftain

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    I think the bigger point that you're missing is that tanks just suck, period. There's no reason to build anything other than infantry and mechanized infantry in the late game to go along with whatever you're using to take down city defenses.
     
  3. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    Tanks ignore zones of control and so are better for penetrations and flanking, so they have their value.
     
  4. callan

    callan Warlord

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    To be fair, the Leopard 2's main gun (120mm L/44) is capable of firing the American M829A2, which is a DU round and a supply of which are kept on hand at Rammstein (under a NATO arms-sharing agreement) for use by the German army should they be forced to face off against the new Soviet T14 (or equivalent) for which the current Tungsten rounds are deemed to be inadequate for a one-hit kill. Rheinmetall are addressing this with a new 130mm barrel which will be capable of firing an upgraded Tungsten-Core round with the ability to defeat the new generation of Eastern-Bloc armour. Testing on this gun only began this year though, so it's a while away yet.

    In the game I feel the issue is not so much that you need Uranium to build Modern Armor but that the obsolescence mechanic is needlessly harsh.
     
  5. xDaunt

    xDaunt Chieftain

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    Yeah, but that value is marginal at best. In practice, you're going to be advancing WW1 style with a massed unit line supported by artillery/ranged units (and the AI does the same). Because of how city defenses work, there's no value to sneaking in some tanks behind enemy lines. They aren't going to be able to take a city anyway unless you're fighting someone multiple eras behind you tech-wise. You have to simply obliterate the enemy units in front of you, then march forward and blow up the city defenses with artillery before you attack with your main troops. Rapid movement isn't really a thing in Civilization 6 combat.

    And the tradeoffs for using tanks are significant. First, you're forced to deviate from the otherwise-desirable Satellites beeline. Second, tanks are vulnerable to AT crews, whereas infantry are not (and can be upgraded to eat AT crews).

    Honestly, the only real benefit to using tanks is the 100% production bonus that you get from the lightning warfare policy if you go fascism. In contrast, you can only get a 50% bonus for infantry. Otherwise, infantry/mech infantry are just better.
     
    CaiusDrewart likes this.
  6. MRM

    MRM Prince

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    I agree to resource always comes first should, it would also make logical more sense. If you think about it - how can you develop iron swords ( for your swordsmen ) without having iron first? How can you develop planes that depend on aluminum without having aluminum first? And so on. First you have to found the resource, then your people can figure out what they can do with it. At least to me that would make more sense.

    It was ridiculous in one of my games. I build an biplane, but building was canceled when I discovered advanced flight. From now on I needed aluminum for building planes but .... there was no aluminum on the map - nowhere. How can scientist develop something that is based on a resource that don't exists?
     
  7. gunnergoz

    gunnergoz Cat Herder

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    Perhaps that's how you play to win, I play differently. And I play with history in mind so an absence of tanks would offend my sense of groggy propriety.
     
  8. Panixs

    Panixs Warlord

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    Ironicly the Germans are looking to design a new tank (leopard3 creative naming :) ) because the leopard2's tugnsten shells wont be able to take out the new russian tanks and so they need something that will use depleted urainium shells.

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201509151027023987-russia-armata-leopard-tank-depleted-uranium/
     
  9. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    It's nonsense that researching any techs can make your military weaker, it shouldn't be in the game.

    Also they need to scrap resource requirements for melee units, it's nonsense because even when the AI and city states were given the crutch of really strong melee units without resource needs after Classical, ranged units could still tear melee apart - so, more crutches for melee were needed, not more limits.

    In V forum we had discussion after discussion after discussion of the problems with unit and warfare balance, and instead of remembering all those problems and trying to solve any of them, VI just went and introduced more problems on top of the old ones.

    It's nonsense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  10. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    build knights than just upgrade them to tanks later only need 1 oil.
     
  11. player1 fanatic

    player1 fanatic Fanatic

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    Knight to Tanks upgrade is example where new upgrade rules hurt the least.
    If you get tech for tanks and no way to get oil you will lose access to knight. But at point of game they are already so outdated that it does not matter.

    Although... Do Cossaks upgrade to tanks?
    For Russian that upgrade can still be damaging if no oil is found, since those are still useful troops if tanks are missing
     
  12. Timally

    Timally Chieftain

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    If you've no oil, there's a great person gives you an oil, and a card that lets you build anything with one resource
     
  13. skyclad

    skyclad Prince

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    I agree tanks are not very useful right now. The problem is they are basically same strenght as infantry! But with some different abilities like ignore zoc. Instead a tank should be at least three times as expensive as infantry and significantly more powerful! Now there is basically no difference in power so why bother?
     
  14. Zantetsuken

    Zantetsuken Chieftain

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    It mostly sucks during the later game, I've gotten to a point where I don't want to upgrade to advanced flight because I am afraid I will lose building access to still perfectly good Biplanes because I don't have Aluminum anywhere nearby. (I haven't been super lucky in strategic resources this game, only had horses even remotely close.. Only one oil I found on an entire huge pangea map, across the entire continent, thankfully I got lucky and got the +1 Oil Merchant) it seems silly that advancing in the tech line can actually hurt you a lot more than it can help you, at least they give you Iron before you need it (though it still sucks losing out on swordsman even if you know its going to happen a bit sooner), it sucks later when you are taking a gamble on losing a perfectly good unit, my biplanes are still doing their job, but I just want to seal the deal with Bombers and Fighters and such
     
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  15. MooFreaky

    MooFreaky Meatbag Destroyer

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    I assume it is designed this way to stop an exploit. The idea that you can just build a bunch of much cheaper older units, then grab the <insert resource here> and instantly upgrade them all and ROFLstomp your way through the AI.

    Is it a good decision? I can see the pros of it, but I still feel the cons are too severe. If you are going to do that kind of exploit, you are going to be ready for the tech upgrade anyway and have lots of the older units ready to upgrade. Plus, this kind of hard fix to it ruins it for the masses who wouldn't use such an exploit.

    But maybe it is a genuine oversight.
     
  16. MRM

    MRM Prince

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    Maybe - but if they want to prevent an mass upgrade exploit, why not making it this way

    - you can only upgrade at encampments, encampments must have certain buildings ( depending on era ), you can only upgrade one unit per turn and per encampments plus only upgrade to the next iteration per turn . That would sudden mass upgrade more difficult/slower without artificially making tech progress a punishment. btw is upgrading limited by the amount of money you have anyway
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  17. bladex

    bladex Emperor

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    than stockpile them build lots of knights and just leave them around until it's time to upgrade.
     
  18. @bolesting@

    @bolesting@ Chieftain

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    Just remove from Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Base\Assets\Gameplay\Data - open file "units" with notepad and remove this line - <Row Unit="UNIT_TANK" UpgradeUnit="UNIT_MODERN_ARMOR"/> - and then save. You will have both tank and modern armor to create.

    PS back up original file if something goes wrong
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
  19. Gicusan

    Gicusan Chieftain

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    You are doing something wrong if you care about infantry/tanks at that point in the game. Enemies and cities are taken by artillery+balloons (3 range) and other ranged units. Other than that you just need some front liners who only have 2 jobs: defence and capturing cities. A few cavalry/tanks/rangers for fast moving to block something, snipe a ranged unit or capture a worker is only a bonus.

    Being reliant on close combat means you wont get max rank experience troops as they will be thrown in and die more often than ranged.
     
  20. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    They only needed to add an upgrade charge for those units built after later tech unlock, but not yet "obsolete."

    Or the game should just have trashy militia equivalents for everything, which have a model like the new unit but strength like the last obsolete unit, with pricey upgrade, like how Landsch. worked in BNW - I just pretended they were some scrappy mercenaries with home arms, not literal Atomic Era pikemen

    There's so many solutions for this besides "break it for the human and the AI just to stop an exploit to the unneeded VI unit upgrade change."
     

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