Tech choice after Alphabet

[azzaman333]

I'd rather we skip Archery altogether unless we require Longbows or Crossbows.

 

[Trystero]

No it isn't. Courthouses are expensive and unnecessary for quite a while, Chicken Pizza is a useless wonder and as far as I'm aware we have no intension to run Caste in the near future. As such, it's basically just a gateway to CS.

I actually agree with this. Most of what it does is open up Civil Service. Math and Currency are much more useful in the short term. If we do end up going the Math path, maybe we should have this debate again after Currency, particularly if Confucianism is gone.

I agree that building Courthouses is a pretty low priority at the moment. But besides CS, CoL also opens up the possibility of bulbing or researching Philosophy for a religion if we miss Confucianism, and for Liberalism. With our tech rate, being first to Liberalism seems like an achievable goal. The availability of Taoism might be an argument for researching IW sooner than CoL.

It appears a majority favors Math next. I didn't necessarily intend this poll to be binding, I just wanted to gauge where opinion stood on our next tech choice. I'm not particularly a fan of making choices this way, and we have a couple of turns left, so feel free to make counterarguments if you feel Math is particularly disastrous.

 

[pindicator]

I don't have a problem with Math; like I said above I could be talked into it.

But I just don't like the path of Math->Currency->CoL. It just doesn't seem to have a plan behind it, more like "let's take what looks like a good tech". Is the plan for a quick CS? Well, that could be worth going for, but I would argue that leaves us with minimal defenses for too long.

If the plan is religion, like some people are talking about, then we should be teching/trading for Priesthood, CoL, Aesthetics & Math (the last 2 for the Great Scientist bulb onto Philo). Why waste time with Currency when we can potentially get Confucianism the quick way and not have to worry about it.

If the plan is to develop economically then Math -> Calendar provides far more commerce than Currency at this stage (extra trade routes are going to give us about 4c total with current city count. 1 plantation will get about the same plus give us happiness -- yes, as we get more cities then Currency will prove better, but why not wait to get it later then?) and Calendar is a tech we will later want for Astronomy.

Math -> IW is a plan for resource control. Yes, if you want to defend against barbs you would pick up Archery. I don't think we're worried about barbs; we're worried about humans. The longer we go without this NAP being finalized the more worried we should be. And I'm not necessarily talking about building axes & spears right now -- I'm talking about the strategic advantage of controlling that resource(s) on the map. We need to know where they are for that to happen.

I think a famous man once said, "If you chase two rabbits, you will lose them both." (Actually, he'll probably say it again before this game is through ) But I'm just concerned that we don't have a plan with our techs, that we're just going with what feels right for the next few turns.

 

[azzaman333]

Math isn't necessarily a bad choice, but we don't know where a single strategic resource is, and that makes me feel very uncomfortable. Sure, we have plans for a NAP with Amazon, but as far as I'm aware nothing is confirmed, and we definitely don't have any deals with the other teams. Archers don't stop humans, for that we need either metal, horses, ivory, catapults or longbows, preferably a combination.

 

[Trystero]

I think pindicator raises several good points about our research path. In particular the point about Calendar rather than Currency is something I overlooked (although I think cottaging most of the silk tiles will be more profitable in the long run). I agree with what I think was his overall point: we need a long term plan to guide short term choices. And azzaman's point regarding strategic resources is well-taken, although I will continue to point out that IW is no guarantee of the availability of strategic resources, as our diversion to AH showed. In particular, I think the mapmaker has severely engineered this map to produce "interesting" outcomes. At least, based on the resources we can see.

I am reconsidering the Math > Currency > CoL path, but I will still argue that Math would be the best next choice since it increases the effectiveness of chopping, which is something we could utilize almost immediately.

That said, I think this would be a good point to discuss our long term objectives and how to best get there. Many of the early choices we made were to allow us to REX. We are at the point where that can happen. Is that still the plan? How many cities do we want, and by what date? How are we going to develop the cities we have? Are there wonders we want to pursue? Liberalism?

 

[Irgy]

If the plan is to develop economically then Math -> Calendar provides far more commerce than Currency at this stage (extra trade routes are going to give us about 4c total with current city count. 1 plantation will get about the same plus give us happiness -- yes, as we get more cities then Currency will prove better, but why not wait to get it later then?) and Calendar is a tech we will later want for Astronomy.

By the time Currency comes in, we'll have a city settled on Andromeda, and it will provide us with more than 4 commerce.

We don't want to work the silk at all, we're better off with cottages (even cottages on the silk). So I don't see that Calendar provides us with any commerce at all. If we have Monarchy, 1 happiness won't help us a great deal. We can't trade resources with anyone until either we relocate the capital or research Astronomy.

So Calendar basically provides us with nothing the way I see it.

Sure, we have plans for a NAP with Amazon, but as far as I'm aware nothing is confirmed

It's been confirmed.

Many of the early choices we made were to allow us to REX.

The early choices were to maximise our beaker count as far as I understood. If we chose to prioritise REX, we wouldn't be beelining Writing for a library, working two scientists for an Academy, and we would have built two workboats and whipped the worker in the first place.


Overall, I agree we need to think a bit about what our actual strategy is though.

A few people have made the point that we want to secure the resources. My question is, how committed are we to our currently planned first Andromedan city spot? If we're fairly sure we want to settle there (and it does look like a good spot), then we don't need Iron Working all that soon. I'm starting to think Math->Currency->Iron Working is a good compromise in this case.

 

[azzaman333]

We probably want to settle there, but we need to find the metal. Currency is a very minor boost at the moment. Also, the faster we know where the resources are, the better we can plan ahead.

 

[AlphaShard]

Don't we want to platation the silk for trade with other players for happyness resources?

 

[pindicator]

By the time Currency comes in, we'll have a city settled on Andromeda, and it will provide us with more than 4 commerce.

After we settle on Andromenda, if we don't have Currency I would guess that our trade routes would look like this:

Sirius: 2c (to Arcturus)
Canopus: 1c (to Sirius)
Arcturus: 2c (to Canopus)
Total: 5 commerce

With Currency I'm guessing we'll see:

Sirius: 2c (to Arcturus) + 1c (to Canopus)
Canopus: 2c (to Arcturus) + 1c (to Sirius)
Arcturus: 2c (to Sirius) + 2c (to Canopus)
Total: 10 commerce

So my bad. It looks like Currency will net us 5 commerce after settling the new city -- but it's still not enough to make researching Currency worthwhile.

We don't want to work the silk at all, we're better off with cottages (even cottages on the silk). So I don't see that Calendar provides us with any commerce at all. If we have Monarchy, 1 happiness won't help us a great deal. We can't trade resources with anyone until either we relocate the capital or research Astronomy.

So Calendar basically provides us with nothing the way I see it.

While I agree that working a cottage will eventually prove better on a tile-per-tile benefit, I thought we had this discussion earlier and the benefit of having tradable resources for other teams meant that we were going to plantation. Edit: Just like Alpha says, I thought we had discussed trading our resources for other teams' resources.

Regardless of tiles worked, I do not buy your argument of HR making happiness moot. With how AMAZON has been acting we can't even finalize a deal that we've agreed upon; we can't bank on having Monarchy when we plan on it. Plus, even when we get HR every additional happiness resource hooked up will free up troops or hammers for other projects.

I'm not saying Calendar is the best choice or the one I want to do, but this whole "Calendar basically provides us with nothing" is rubbish. In the short-term t's on par with Currency in my opinion, possibly stronger because the additional tiles that can be worked in all cities due to the +1

A few people have made the point that we want to secure the resources. My question is, how committed are we to our currently planned first Andromedan city spot? If we're fairly sure we want to settle there (and it does look like a good spot), then we don't need Iron Working all that soon. I'm starting to think Math->Currency->Iron Working is a good compromise in this case.

I think our first Andromedan city may very well change once we get warriors over to explore. It's located at City I right now because that's the best spot we can see. That's my argument for IW too -- getting more knowledge of what the land is like so we can make a more-informed decision.

 

[Irgy]

So my bad. It looks like Currency will net us 5 commerce after settling the new city -- but it's still not enough to make researching Currency worthwhile.

5 commerce might not seem like a lot, but remember, we only have about 40 commerce in our entire empire at the moment. 5 commerce is a noticable increase on 40.

While I agree that working a cottage will eventually prove better on a tile-per-tile benefit, I thought we had this discussion earlier and the benefit of having tradable resources for other teams meant that we were going to plantation. Edit: Just like Alpha says, I thought we had discussed trading our resources for other teams' resources.

At that stage however, we were of the view that it was actually possible to trade resources, whereas now we know it's not going to be for a long time. There's no point putting a cottage on a square that we'll eventually replace with a plantation, but it's also unlikely we want to put a plantation on every silk. One of the settling options has us settling on one of the silks. We only want another 2 or 3 for trade even in the long term, as it's unlikely that we'll be on friendly terms with every other team to be able to trade all of them.

Regardless of tiles worked, I do not buy your argument of HR making happiness moot. With how AMAZON has been acting we can't even finalize a deal that we've agreed upon; we can't bank on having Monarchy when we plan on it. Plus, even when we get HR every additional happiness resource hooked up will free up troops or hammers for other projects.

I'm not saying the 1 happiness is useless, but we're not talking about 1 happiness in the long term, we're talking about 1 happiness in the short term by researching Calendar sooner rather than later. In the short term, we're at our health cap, with no easy solution in sight (although clams will help). We are currently working scientists for another 17 turns and not growing in Sirius, while Canopus is well away from its hapy cap and building workers. So in the short term, we got nothing out of raising the happy cap.

I'm not saying Calendar is the best choice or the one I want to do, but this whole "Calendar basically provides us with nothing" is rubbish. In the short-term t's on par with Currency in my opinion, possibly stronger because the additional tiles that can be worked in all cities due to the +1

Well, call it rubbish if you like, but my argument is quite straight forward:
* We have no use for the extra happiness in the short term.
* Unlike Currency commerce which just happens on its on, any Calendar commerce requires working a particular tile, so at the very least we would have to compare it to the tile we would be working instead. This certainly puts the commerce 'gain' well below that of Currency. If we would rather work a cottage anyway, which I believe, then it is in fact 0.
* Therefore, we get literally nothing out of Calendar in the short term.

 

[pindicator]

Sorry Irgy, but I read all that as 5 commerce > 1 happy face. Even at this stage in the game, 1 happy face lets us work far more tiles than 5 commerce. Even if it's passive commerce. (And really, we have all the commerce we need with Pottery. We just need to get a cities down that is dedicated to working some cottages.

But I won't argue that anymore, especially since I think they're both sub-optimal choices. I was just trying to point out that Currency isn't necessarily the best choice for a commerce-strat at this point. Once we have a few more cities down then I'll definitely go for Currency.

 

[Irgy]

Sorry Irgy, but I read all that as 5 commerce > 1 happy face. Even at this stage in the game, 1 happy face lets us work far more tiles than 5 commerce.

That's true in 90+% of games, when you have the health and the food to actually reach the increased happy cap. My point was that we are a quite unusual case of not being in that situation at all for a while to come.

 

[BLubmuz]

If we can manage to have the prerequisites for CoL (Poly/PH, if i got it right) from Amazon, then i'd say let's go for it. We can ask them to research IW and then trade other techs to them in exchange.

I'm nervous too for the lack of strategic in sight.

 

[pindicator]

I'm nervous too for the lack of strategic in sight.

Let's talk strategy then. What do you think our long term plans should be now that we have a bigger understanding of the map?

One possibility
Plan to invade a home island with our UU and take advantage of this being a sea-heavy map -- head to Astronomy quick and invade either with Macemen or drafted Muskets (slower) or Rifles (slower still). Use that to take out one opponent's home island.

If we go this route, we'd want to rely on our economic traits to head quickly towards Astronomy & CS, then avoid wars that are not on our terms, buddy-ing up with our neighbor and even our potential target.

A major consideration if we go this way: is this a cylindrical or toroidal map? If not, it may be hard to sneak a force around outside the arms of the star.

Other possibilities...
What are your thoughts? Our UB suggests playing for a longer game then using our production advantage -- attacking with Infantry or Artillery perhaps. Or use our economic traits plus the early Academy to peacefully take the sidelines.

 

[Trystero]

Alphabet will be done next turn. As things stand now, the majority is in favor of Math next and research towards CoL. I'd like to propose that we keep the tech discussion open, and not consider the Currency > CoL path set just yet. Specifically, I think we need to continue the discussion of our overall strategy (such as actually forming one) and what we want to do long term, And I think even if we want Iron Working sooner, researching Math first will give us time to scout the adjacent island.

 

[azzaman333]

Ok.

Math next is pointless. We don't need Currency, Calendar or Construction. CoL now or IW now are both better choices.

 

[Trystero]

We can't tech CoL directly. We don't have Priesthood yet, and I don't think AMAZON has it yet either. Math increases the yield from chops, boosting potential production in Canopus, at least. I won't repeat my arguments about the risks of IW.

 

[azzaman333]

We don't have enough workers to make Math now worthwhile.

 

[Trystero]

It's not just for chopping, but we could use the bonus to chop out another worker in Canopus.

 

[azzaman333]

Well, why else research Math now, except for the chopping?