Tech path advice

[Qactus]

Hey there. The map I'm currently playing gives me a lot to think about, and I'd be very interested in how the more experienced players would tackle it, especially the early tech path.
The thing is, I self-researched almost all of the early techs and something tells me it just can't be efficient. At the same time, looking back in hindsight I don't see which of them could've been omitted for a later backfill. I still feel every tech was needed immediately. I've done a straight alpha beeline in other games, but those usually had some strong commerce tile (gold/gems), so I don't think it would be applicable here.

Byzantium starts with Mysticism and The Wheel. My tech path was

Spoiler tech path :

Agriculture, Hunting, Mining, Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry, Fishing, Pottery, Masonry, Writing, Aesthetics, Polytheism, Literature. Then Alphabet became available for trade.

Spoiler Start :

 

[Gumbolt]

I would certainly consider moving onto plains hill.

Spoiler Thoughts :

Agriculture. AH?, Mining, bronzeworking,
Masonry pends if you want mids or great wall.
Pottery will be great for cottages.
Then depends if you have metal or horse. and plan to rush anyone. If I am planning a rush I would skip masonry.

Hard to know without playing the map. Only tech what you need. Not sure fishing is that urgent.

 

[Fippy]

Agri and Hunting are no-brainers, then i would go AH next.
Rivercow and most food resis near are animals.
Actually with such a strong cap and IMP i would also go fishing - pottery before BW, favoring fp cottages over chopping which seems not needed early.
(Fishing should almost always come before Pottery Gumbo, so cheap and gives a discount, unless there's no seafood).

I see no real alternative over self-teching all those, nice mix of land and they are all helpful, teching Alpha becomes really questionable on Immortal without big commerce tiles.

 

[lymond]

I'm assuming you settled 2W on the PH, which seems the best move here. I think there are two ways to play this start. AG>AH first or AG>BW first. There's positives to both ways I think. Grass cows are a strong tile for IMP settlers, but conversely BW allows IMP chops. With AG>BW you have Mining to at least mine the grass hill which is strong for the IMP settlers. The cow could be farmed instead in lieu of AH. Key here is maximizing valuable worker turns and production.

I think either approach is fine, and either way the workers would have something to do although maybe less valuable actions in one case over the other. Not sure without testing. Regardless, on IMM you generally need to streamline that tech path and get to Writing sooner, which I would after either AH or BW. In the case of BW first, I might go POT>Writing next, but without more map knowledge I don't know if AH has higher value and/or Fishing has any value at all. But some FP cottages would be nice early and you might be able to just settle right on stone for a helper city.

Point is, especially with someone like Justy who starts behind a bit due to starting techs, I think a decision needs to be made between POT and AH and get Writing earlier Then nab Masonry for possible fail gold ops and Mids. Aesths over Alpha probably best here, but may depend on how many AIs you meet.

Looks like nice start.

 

[Fippy]

Oh here's a screenie Lymo, so you can see more (in case on phone) and why hunting is obvious

Spoiler :

At size 4 (and with hunting + AH) those are so many IMP hammers, i really think i would push BW way back, pottery really good for floodplains and granary option.

 

[lymond]

Oh yeah, I'm testing it now. I think your approach is certainly good, and a strong case for getting all those techs early for such a strong start. AH has more value as well once you see more of the map which is another caveat to the decision.

 

[Qactus]

Thanks for your great feedback. Yes, I settled on the plains hill, I forgot to mention that. At size three I was working Wheat and the two camps, which was great for building the first two settlers. I initially wanted to skip AH and went for BW next, but then saw I'd need AH (as well as Fishing) for the next cities.
Ok, so skipping Mining-BW would have been a good possibility to have a bit more focus (and earlier FP cottages). And later chops seem to be the most acceptable of the sacrifices.
But would you just change the tech order (e.g. Mining-BW after Fishing-Pottery) or would you delay it until Alpha?

 

[sampsa]

I think on immortal, you can go alpha to get mining-bw via trade on such map especially combined with IMP, assuming you have someone to trade with. On deity it feels more risky since if suddenly everyone has alpha before you have it, you've delayed BW a lot.

 

[Fippy]

Depends on wonders, Pyras with stone so close are always a great option, and for them we need Masonry & BW for some chops.
Basically i would not think about self-teching Alpha here, if picking peaceful Aest is great with marble, or construction for (cheesy) Elepults.
AIs might take forever until they randomly pick Alpha, seems very likely that BW is needed before that happens.

 

[Gumbolt]

Actually didn't do the above. With imp you can skip mining/BW.I think when I got to AH I just thought BW would be too much.

Losing gold per turn but not really worried.

Spoiler What happened :

So warrior moved to Plains hill. At that point moved settler.
Teched Agriculture, Then hunting as ivory give hammers and commerce to an imperialist leader.
AH next. 2xsettlers at size 3. Settled for stone city. Then sheep city. Built 2 workers.

Settled fish city below capital.

Teched pottery, mining, HBR, archery and BW. Masonry to follow.

Spammed HA after building 2 barracks. Chopped like crazy. Whipped too. Had 1 chariot and about 11HA. Headed for London. Only had 2 defenders. Fell quickly. Nottingham had 5 defenders but 3 left when I took London. Kept most cities.

Had some great RNG with English. She had metal but only saw one spear. Few axes but odds were at least 28% with each attacker. Took alphabet, sailing and another tech for peace. Traded for maths and IW.

Switched to bud to help diplo.

Mids built around 500bc.

Losing 7 gold a turn but this will improve. I can still pillage a few resources for gold.

 

[Qactus]

Wow, this looks impressive. I really should consider Horse Archer rushes more often. Without a stable and you only lost two HAs, capturing six cities. That is extremely efficient. Also a nice way to grab alphabet and you even built the Pyramids. Rep scientists should carry you until Currency. Overall a very bold all-out war that paid off, maybe that's where I could improve, not being afraid of going full tilt

 

[Gumbolt]

I got lucky on the war front. I don't think the AI focused on cultural buildings. Instead spammed settlers. Yes I think I am probably good for currency. AI seem to be teching quite fast here. There is some advantage to using later tech rushes if the AI build wonders and buildings for you.

Have you got a mid game save for people to look at? Or Late BC.

 

[Qactus]

Yes, I might as well post my current save and invite you guys to give some more feedback, so not just on the early tech path.

City placement is exactly like Gumbolt, only different order and northern city 1W to borrow the wheat and save the hill (and since I needed a monument anyway). But I guess you wanted sheep immediately and of course skipped fishing.

After building Pyramids & The Great Library and teching Currency it looked like one of so many games where I go Music, CS, Education and Lib and mainly play peacefully until Cuirassiers. Buit then my first Great Person was an Engineer and I took that as a sign to go for Cataphracts instead (I teched Metal Casting and bulbed Machinery).

So that has multiple implications now. For example I still lack Caste System, so my National Epic city was growing and already working coast without specialist slots. So I spread religion there and whipped a market for 3pop with OR. Things I'd usually not do, but which seem reasonable if I want to stay in slavery for the war buildup.

Parthenon is another thing that I'm still unsure. Built it for failgold, but then in the last BC turns gold was really flowing in, from selling techs and 600 from Pacal's trade mission. So I thought I might as well finish the wonder for myself. Although it seems stupid to have had the hammers lying in the queue for so long.

Hanging Gardens I think is a good thing, if only to have eight pop worth of whipping for the upcoming war.

The big question for me is, should I attack Pacal first, who has the bigger prize with Mutal having "my" Hindu shrine and the Great Lighthouse? But he is also a lot tougher than Elizabeth. He has Longbows already, hill cities and resourceless spears.
Elizabeth on the other hand is the much easier target (lacking Feudalism and Monarchy). Instead she oracled Philosophy and still holds the monopoly on both CoL and Philo.

I was thinking, GLH first would give me an ongoing boost (almost all cities are coastal) for any subsequent campaign. On the other hand, war with Elizabeth first could give me more time to prepare for Pacal: For example unlock and build Heroic Epic, build up spy points against Pacal for city revolts...

 

[Gumbolt]

Your not doing that shabby here. 1AD and you have decent tech progress. You have 3-4 good cities and some more average ones. Str 12 unit this early will be very strong.

Maybe sharing the resource would of been better for my game. It would of made a good NE site. 3x food resources! I was only really testing out start. I now have a lot of badly placed Ai cities.

With a start like this so many things are possible. Spiritual is a great civic to have. Police state with forges will give you a 50% bonus on military. You can use 5 turn bursts to max out whipping phases before switching back to rep.

The English here have been somewhat crippled by forest. I don't think the AI likes to chop down forest. Probably why my rush worked so well. Pacal* looks to have great land here. Pends how close AI are to feudalism.

 

[Gumbolt]

Up to 1ad.

Spoiler More of a comparison :

Got hanging gardens in London. So much forest the extra 11 pop was just too tempting.

Teched towards currency using scientists.

Pacal* was teching really fast here. I rounded up my HA and sent them towards him. I bribed Russians on Pascal. (He would of done same to me.) Next turn Pascal bribes Toku on Russians. He now has construction and ivory. Lacks HBR for now. He has taken 1 Russian city.

I have taken 3 Pascal cities before taking ceasefie. I am hoping he will send some units towards Russians. He must be pretty close to feudalism. His capital on a hill with 5 defenders was too much. I lost 5HA taking his non hill city. Catapults and some Phants on way.

Settled my 2nd GG in capital. I have a GE which I will burn on machinery. I want that capital.

Economy is struggling a bit but I have wealth.

You were much further ahead techwise at this point. I have quite a few more cities. Ai busy at war with eachother for now.

 

[Lennier]

Spoiler :

Gumbolt: It's Pacal, not Pascal.

Pacal (aka Pacal the great, aka Pakal, aka K'inich Janaab' Pakal) was a king (or ajaw) in Mayapan in the 7th century (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kʼinich_Janaabʼ_Pakal).

Pascal (Blaise Pascal) was a French mathematician, physicist, inventor, writer and Catholic theologian who lived in the 17th century (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaise_Pascal). There's also a programming language and a unit of pressure named after him.

It's a nit to pick, but it's driving me up the wall.
Gumbolt edited post.

 

[Gumbolt]

Ooops.

 

[Qactus]

Thanks for playing and posting your 1AD save. Will definitely take a closer look as soon as I find the time. And also very excited to see how the Cataphracts will fare in my game. Still undecided who to attack first. Promotions is also a thing to consider (in contrast to regular knights they don't have first strike immunity, but can of course gain it via Flanking II), maybe against longbows Flanking II will outperform Combat II. Will post an update here

 

[Qactus]

Assembled an army of Cataphracts and instead of waltzing through England I couldn't resist going for Pacal first and getting my hands on The Great Lighthouse and the Hindu shrine. It worked really really well despite the tough defense (fortified walled hill longbows). I took a cease fire now to heal up and reinforce, but I only lost 6 Cataphracts taking three excellent cities. Lost two of them against the same stubborn mace at improbable odds, but then got some lucky withdrawals as well, so I think all in all luck was pretty balanced. Flanking II seems to be the way to go, but I'm no expert on that. Great unique unit and as you said, with police state and forges quite easy to produce here.

Spoiler Mutal, former Mayan Capital :

Spoiler Cease fire, 18 Cataphracts left :

 

[Gumbolt]

Looking good. That is a juicy capital.

Is it better to go flanking or combat on these units? LB have 1 first strike. Flanking 1 and 2 get's you 30% withdraw chance. I guess you would need a medic unit to help make it work? Only Samurai defenders have serious first strike issues here. Of course if the AI don't have mace or longbows the odds of winning should be pretty high.