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Tech trade on immortal and deity

i'm_rick_james

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
3
Here's a question for the über-pros out there. Tech trade is emphasized a lot when talking about strategies of winning on immortal and deity, right?! Is it possible to win on these levels with tech exchange options being switched off in the settings??? Just curious...I'm not even close to survive even the first turn, thus I cannot assess this issue. Thanks guys!
 
I'm not up to deity anymore, but it is definitely easier with tech brokering, and I'm sure, trading, turned off. Even the cleverest human trading doesn't make up for the fact that the AIs trade fairly with each other, while demanding all kinds of extra beakers and gold from the human.
 
It's possible, but tech trading, and tech brokering make the game a whole lot easier to stay near on par with the AI.
 
The fact the AI does not give fair trades does not nearly compensate for 1.It's inability to cleverly bulb and trade , 2. It's unwillingness to trade with other AI for petty reasons while a human will whore themselves as required .

No way" tech trading / brokering off" is easier
 
The fact the AI does not give fair trades does not nearly compensate for 1.It's inability to cleverly bulb and trade

I'm very surprised at this assertion. While I'm not the greatest tech broker, I do know what techs to go for to get trades, and I find the AIs slow down much more than I do without brokering. I remember several respected deity players saying the same thing a couple of years ago (not a great argument on my part perhaps, but there you go...).

2. It's unwillingness to trade with other AI for petty reasons while a human will whore themselves as required .

This too. The AIs have much lower thresholds for trading with each other, and have no WFYABTA with each other.

In addition, with no brokering you can trade a monopoly tech when it suits you rather than having to get everything you can for it in one or two turns. Monopoly techs are at least as powerful because they remain tradable even after you have traded them around a bit.

Also you can trade military techs to your friends without them making their way to your enemies (in fact if anything it will delay your enemies getting it, since your friends can't research it and trade it themselves).
 
no brokering can back fire... just gave Med/priest/monarchy away to my Vassals with the aim of giving them Feudalism for long bows, but i traded for writing and can not give that away...

so watched as Spain rolled up all my vassals (6)
 
Actually depends on your opponents and how your game plays out. With it trading/brokering on, and you with a religion that most have, you can usually make out quite well trading and brokering. But if instead most civs won't trade with you but will among themselves, well, you will be far behind in tech in a deity game.

With trading/brokering on, I find that (on average), I am keeping up but rarely/never in the lead on high difficulties (until near the end when you can be at war and researching at an efficiency level that beats out all the AI bonuses). And that is even the case if I have a super-science city. Of course if you have a good military start you can be ahead but then that game is already over (just keep making troops and continue to conquer). You can, of course, be ahead in a particular tech line, which is the key to eventual victory. If isolated you are pretty much doomed until end-game, so have to be super peaceful until you can catch up (unless you have a great landmass all to your own, which is rarely the case).

Now I play with trade/broke off. I wouldn't say it is better, it is different. And both modes are difficult to win at emperor+. I think I like both off since you get a more interesting mix of civilizations. Can have someone with democracy and no musketmen or a monarchy driven war machine. The downside is having to research everything. I kinda wish when you get to the next era that you can trade lower techs with other civs that have also advanced, but that is just nitpicking.

One thing that is different in the no trade/broker games => the massive hordes. Since it takes longer to move along the tech tree, the AI has more turns to make units. And they make mind blowing amounts sometimes. Usually they send big waves one after another but every now and then, its like 'woah'. I think it happens when they are at war with others but those wars end, and you get all those troops. That and sometimes they pop nationhood and make a huge swarm of drafties. I use the AI patch for unofficial patch 1.39 and it seems to make a difference.
 
Tech trades and their successor RA are broken mechanics, so it's good to see interest in not using them :). There are precious few things in any civ (or TBS for that matter) where one feature among many can so readily and soundly overpower other decisions/outputs.

To illustrate, I was able to keep up in tech in a recent playthrough with another person playing the same map with the same opponents when said player had over double my beakers/turn, because I tech traded with vassals. Generally, one would expect an empire that techs 2x as quickly to actually have a lead! And yet by the late 1700's and early 1800's when I stopped after securing dom just to see relative tech positions, I was actually a little ahead.

As for immortal/deity, the answer is yes it's possible. You can probably win them w/o special tricks, and good players will do so easily on immortal...simply teching and prioritizing better than the AI.

However the real area to make up ground becomes espionage. With NTT, espionage takes over as the next-most-powerful mechanic, and it IS strong. A great spy is worth multiple strong early techs...or settled at a rate others can't compete. The spy spec is very respectable, providing 4 direct espionage points and actually giving a reason to use courthouses in close cities. Until security buraeau for AIs it is beyond amazing, but even then you can flood a city in culture or find other ways (such as sabotage bureau) to bulk-steal tech. It even gives some rare incentive to run a religion you found for the multiplier!

Unfortunately, firaxis never balanced it. The AI will never run counterespionage, but opponents who do so make stealing very ineffective. Oh well.
 
Here's a question for the über-pros out there. Tech trade is emphasized a lot when talking about strategies of winning on immortal and deity, right?! Is it possible to win on these levels with tech exchange options being switched off in the settings??? Just curious...I'm not even close to survive even the first turn, thus I cannot assess this issue. Thanks guys!

Anything that limits the trading techs hurts the AI far more then it hurts the human player.

Why?

1. The AI researches semi-randomly, wasting time on worthless techs while you beeline toward key military techs, bypassing the ones you don't need. Having tech brokering / trading OFF means this problem becomes chronic, because the sum total of AI teching is not available for trade between them. The overall effect is to slow down AI teching, which makes the game much easier for the human.

2. AI wars last nearly forever ( pre fuedalism / currency ). Because one of the key ways for wars to end is by 1 AI offering tech to the other AI. So early AI wars tend to last much longer. This slows the AI's down too, which is good for the human player.

3. Far less chance of having an AI war bribe someone on you, which is a major concern on the higher levels.

4. The AI almost never steals techs via espionage.
 
What AZ says, tech trading benefits human players early cos of Aesthetics and other known trading key techs.
But later, when teching towards Gunpowder/Mil. Trad. and/or Rifling, how often do you trade for stuffs like Nationalism..CS..Paper..Edu?

Phi leaders become overpowered, be it for GSpies or bulbing everything important, not worrying about later cos you know with hordes of Curis you can always end games..AIs will never reach Rifling in time.
 
What AZ says, tech trading benefits human players early cos of Aesthetics and other known trading key techs.
But later, when teching towards Gunpowder/Mil. Trad. and/or Rifling, how often do you trade for stuffs like Nationalism..CS..Paper..Edu?

Phi leaders become overpowered, be it for GSpies or bulbing everything important, not worrying about later cos you know with hordes of Curis you can always end games..AIs will never reach Rifling in time.

I'd rather end the game with random trash to protect my stack and cannons. It is much safer on Deity.
 
What AZ says, tech trading benefits human players early cos of Aesthetics and other known trading key techs.
But later, when teching towards Gunpowder/Mil. Trad. and/or Rifling, how often do you trade for stuffs like Nationalism..CS..Paper..Edu?

Phi leaders become overpowered, be it for GSpies or bulbing everything important, not worrying about later cos you know with hordes of Curis you can always end games..AIs will never reach Rifling in time.

Be that as it may, normal-speed deity games with tech trades off are incredibly rare on the forums.

Tech trades are fundamentally broken. You have no other option in game that gives >100% returns (POST multiplier!) on investment in the game. A comparable bonus is the 50% from bureaucracy, which requires high upkeep, gives less bonus (by a wide margin), and is limited to a single city. The primary drawback is that an opponent receives your technology also, but ROI from trades with multiple empires dictates that it is still best to swap techs by a WIDE margin.

Nothing else can touch tech trades as a factor in gameplay. People use them to instigate AI wars, to secure gobs of gold (then turn around and talk about how :gold: multiplier buildings suck, as if that would still be the case w/o broken features), to buy OUT of wars, to secure people from attacking, and to increase tech pace at a rate that *literally* nothing else in the game can touch.

Despite assertions that NTT makes the game easier, there's little-to-no definitive proof of them.

When I see tech trades and research agreements, I see a trump card so powerful that it overwhelms many of the other decisions made in the game. It's so strong that if possible to do so people virtually always trade tech.

Do you always HA rush? Do you always go music early? Do you always research BW as the 3rd tech? Improve tiles in 1 way? Use religion? Use corporations and/or state property? Use siege?

No. It crosses a line that no other un-nerfed feature could dream of reaching, and yet it chugs along in some form in every single game. An equalizer, and a powerful one at that.
 
Well tmit :)
If i couldn't trade for gold, i'd still prefer building wealth somewhere..or breeding 1-2 GMs..or failgold over markets.
What about gold for ressources?

It doesn't make the game easier for everyone. You have to abuse military advantages, in an other forum i monitor you see TT constantly turned off to make it harder.
By builders, who think cottages/Fin is insanely overpowered ;)
 
4. The AI almost never steals techs via espionage.

I see the AI stealing techs all the time when I play. But then I always play with TT off.

But when I read most of the strat advice for upper level, they do seem to focus on researching/bulbing certain techs and milking the AI in trades so that would lead me to believe that it would make things harder with it turned off.

To make the AI play better without TT I think you would need to turn off ESP since the AI seems to trade off science for esp points which slows down it's research.
 
... it chugs along in some form in every single game.

One of the reasons NTB is more fun (never tried NTT). It gives you the option of more varied tech paths. I got so sick researching the same techs every game, techs I didn't even want, because trading them was often the only way to keep up on immortal/deity. That's not why I started playing civ!

An equalizer, and a powerful one at that.

But it's equalizing the advantages the AIs get from brokering. The less trading they can do, the more each AI resembles that backwards loser isolated on its own landmass. I'm pretty sure an isolated human is less helpless than an isolated AI, and won't be needing clever tech trades to catch up if the AIs are all isolated too.
 
Cannons and junk is safer on Deity due to it being more consistent win odds.

Not from my experience, mounted stacks grow bigger cos they do not travel so long.
Break the point where you have enuf so losses are no biggie anymore, and it's a game.
What i'd get in winning odds from cannons, Deity Ais get back with more time for reinforcements, and AIs not at war yet get more time for teching.
 
But it's equalizing the advantages the AIs get from brokering. The less trading they can do, the more each AI resembles that backwards loser isolated on its own landmass. I'm pretty sure an isolated human is less helpless than an isolated AI, and won't be needing clever tech trades to catch up if the AIs are all isolated too.

And nevertheless AI trade strategy is awful.

It's correct to say that it skill equalizes even for them though...assuming said AI in question is one of the maybe 1-3 that out of 7+ that decide they want to play at all :).

Not from my experience, mounted stacks grow bigger cos they do not travel so long.
Break the point where you have enuf so losses are no biggie anymore, and it's a game.

That's true for every unit that can actually take the cities though.

Mounted speed is a big draw due to deity production rate and tech timing. It's almost comical to argue with players who are still learning who insist that the movement points aren't a big deal...completely failing to factor in opponent build + force shift timing into the difficulty of attacking an individual city.

Now don't get me wrong, I love drafting as much as the next guy and use it excessively, but that hardly precludes making cavalry which is a superior unit to build and/or upgrade into. Hard hitting units as fast as possible wins the day.

I'm pretty sure produced/whipped cavalry + drafted rifles is the winning combo. Part of the reason for that is that the draft is very cheap in :food: cost to :hammers: yield and the :mad: from one doesn't stack with the other, so you can really punish cities if you want the units quickly. We argued over it earlier, but I find ~30 rifles and 40 cavalry to be > 50 cavalry or whatever you'd get from only whipping cav, and having the cavalry is MUCH better than pure rifles (which I'd not only advocate if you lack horse).

Rarely matters though. If you either kill their stack or tie them up in another war (or simply backstab I guess) you can stack split + use other nation's territory to invade as well and take 5-10 cities in <10 turns regardless, and that's huge.
 
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