Tech Tree Discussion

[pepper2000]

Agreed. What I'd like to do is reintroduce it and move some of the content at Globalization to Global Governance. Then the Globalization tech would be for economics (e.g. International Port, Cargo Ship, and some of the skyscrapers) and Global Governance would be for politics (e.g. United Nations). Though I think they should either be in the same column or Global Governance should come first.

 

[raxo2222]

Agreed. What I'd like to do is reintroduce it and move some of the content at Globalization to Global Governance. Then the Globalization tech would be for economics (e.g. International Port, Cargo Ship, and some of the skyscrapers) and Global Governance would be for politics (e.g. United Nations). Though I think they should either be in the same column or Global Governance should come first.

I think there is some free estate here, also global governance must then lead to some other tech too.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Global Governance would be for politics (e.g. United Nations).

Keep in mind that even with the UN in RL, we still don't really have a complete Global Governance. Might be headed that way but that's seriously a whole new level of achieving that concept.

 

[raxo2222]

Keep in mind that even with the UN in RL, we still don't really have a complete Global Governance. Might be headed that way but that's seriously a whole new level of achieving that concept.

I guess this tech is more of political aspect of globalization.
Pepper can change its name anyway.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I guess this tech is more of political aspect of globalization.
Pepper can change its name anyway.

Why change the name when you can introduce a great civic to go with it instead? The concept of such a government can be implemented as an ideal as a civic, rather than assuming it means the entire ideal is achieved.

 

[raxo2222]

Why change the name when you can introduce a great civic to go with it instead? The concept of such a government can be implemented as an ideal as a civic, rather than assuming it means the entire ideal is achieved.

How such civic could work?

Like increase diplomatic relations with other civs or boost foreign trade?

 

[Thunderbrd]

How such civic could work?

Like increase diplomatic relations with other civs or boost foreign trade?

I think those would be a few good places to start considering that. It would clearly be a political embracing of the idealism of globalism and would represent the nation, or at least the strongest factions within it, doing all they can to achieve what the original Civ IV game might have called a 'diplomatic victory'.

 

[raxo2222]

I think those would be a few good places to start considering that. It would clearly be a political embracing of the idealism of globalism and would represent the nation, or at least the strongest factions within it, doing all they can to achieve what the original Civ IV game might have called a 'diplomatic victory'.

Can be diplomatic victory or at least civic forcing be adjusted, so all other AIs have to pick all your civics?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Can be diplomatic victory or at least civic forcing be adjusted, so all other AIs have to pick all your civics?

The UN diplomatic votes can, on a civic by civic basis, achieve that sort of thing.

 

[raxo2222]

The UN diplomatic votes can, on a civic by civic basis, achieve that sort of thing.

For now only 5 civic categories are chooseable, and those are fixed civics - that is you can't then choose other civics, that get unlocked later or force other civs to earlier civics.

 

[Thunderbrd]

For now only 5 civic categories are chooseable, and those are fixed civics - that is you can't then choose other civics, that get unlocked later or force other civs to earlier civics.

Pretty sure those vote options aren't hard to setup more of.

 

[pepper2000]

I guess this happened a while ago, but I only just now noticed that Telegraph has been moved to come after and require Electricity? Why is that? It was correct before. Samuel Morse patented his telegraph in 1837, sent the famous "WHAT HATH GOD WROUGHT?" message in 1844, and by the 1850s telegraphs were in widespread commercial usage. The first public power grids did not come into operation until 1882.

This change messes up some other things. Now Telephone has been pushed later and cannot be used as a prereq for Management, which it should be. You can't run a national corporation without a telephone system.

 

[raxo2222]

I guess this happened a while ago, but I only just now noticed that Telegraph has been moved to come after and require Electricity? Why is that? It was correct before. Samuel Morse patented his telegraph in 1837, sent the famous "WHAT HATH GOD WROUGHT?" message in 1844, and by the 1850s telegraphs were in widespread commercial usage. The first public power grids did not come into operation until 1882.

This change messes up some other things. Now Telephone has been pushed later and cannot be used as a prereq for Management, which it should be. You can't run a national corporation without a telephone system.

@KaTiON_PT untangled techs and had to do some sacrifices.

I think a lot of those connections are bit arbitrary anyway.
Also you need to research all those techs you mentioned to reach Atomic era.

 

[pepper2000]

What is meant by "untangled" here? Whatever it is, I think that we need to make historical accuracy a high priority and avoid blatant anachronisms, like Electricity leading to Telegraph.

 

[raxo2222]

What is meant by "untangled" here? Whatever it is, I think that we need to make historical accuracy a high priority and avoid blatant anachronisms, like Electricity leading to Telegraph.

No arrows crossing each other and going under techs.

 

[Thunderbrd]

What is meant by "untangled" here? Whatever it is, I think that we need to make historical accuracy a high priority and avoid blatant anachronisms, like Electricity leading to Telegraph.

Though the above is a far higher priority than

No arrows crossing each other and going under techs.

we should probably keep working at it until both conditions are solved for.

 

[pepper2000]

I see. Yeah, I would consider the untanglings nice to have, but it is more important to me that the tech tree be structured in a manner that is logical and historically accurate. There was a time when I untangled my draft tech tree for the Galactic and later eras, and I found that, given the X values for all techs and the prereqs, it is always possible to rearrange the Y values alone and avoid crossing lines.

If it's really that important, we could add a principle that every tech has at least one prereq in the previous column, and arrows never go more than a single column. If all else fails, then a tech can be given only AND prereqs and just not have an arrow at all pointing to it.

 

[KaTiON_PT]

Thanks for the input @pepper2000, back when I was planning to move I shared my proposed tree and had no complaints back then so that's why it was commited.

I didn't knew about this issue so I will make corrections.

A question tough, doesn't the telegraph require electricity to function? I was sure it represented the electric telegraph. "Samuel Morse independently developed and patented a recording electric telegraph in 1837."

 

[Thunderbrd]

If it's really that important, we could add a principle that every tech has at least one prereq in the previous column, and arrows never go more than a single column. If all else fails, then a tech can be given only AND prereqs and just not have an arrow at all pointing to it.

I think that might be taking it too far but I do try to have a prereq from the previous line if it can be done logically, though it doesn't have to be the OR prereq that gets a line from it. No problem with lines going further so long as uninterrupted in the process. It's not always possible, I think, to demand the prereq of a line before without some irrational prereq establishments at times. But as a rule of thumb to TRY to make that happen, yes, please.

Thanks for the input @pepper2000, back when I was planning to move I shared my proposed tree and had no complaints back then so that's why it was commited.

I didn't knew about this issue so I will make corrections.

A question tough, doesn't the telegraph require electricity to function? I was sure it represented the electric telegraph.

I figured that... sometimes I am not sure about certain details like these until it's pointed out as well. Always an ongoing effort with this sort of thing so it's good to bring these points up as soon as we see them.

 

[pepper2000]

Thanks for the input @pepper2000, back when I was planning to move I shared my proposed tree and had no complaints back then so that's why it was commited.

I didn't knew about this issue so I will make corrections.

A question tough, doesn't the telegraph require electricity to function? I was sure it represented the electric telegraph. "Samuel Morse independently developed and patented a recording electric telegraph in 1837."

Thanks for revisiting the issue, and I'm sorry that I missed the discussion when it was live. Yes, a telegraph requires electricity to function. So do (landline) telephones, which were built on top of telegraph infrastructure (that's how you get a dialtone during a power outage). However, the amount of electricity is much smaller than typically comes through a power grid, and it would be impossible to use a telegraph or telephone line to get enough power to run major electric appliances. It was after telegraph networks were developed that it was realized that the currents could be increased to a level that they deliver usable levels of power.

Part of the issue here may be that the "Electricity" tech is too broad. There is the theory of electromagnetism, which was developed throughout the early to mid 19th century, and there are practical power grids, which as noted above were first deployed in 1882 (though private power grids go back at least as far as 1878). There is a case for replacing the Electricity tech with "Power Grids" or something like that, and having a separate "Electromagnetism" tech early in the Industrial Era. I already split off "Incandescent Lighting" into its own tech, which was previously part of Electricity as well. But it's not clear what content we have for Electromagnetism in this scenario, and the Industrial Era is already getting quite crowded.

While we're on the subject, I notice that Taipei 101 is at Electricity, which is clearly wrong. I will move it to somewhere more appropriate.