Tech Tree Discussion

[raxo2222]

Anyone ever consider just thinning a few techs per Era out. Combining their effects to similar tech or their Prereq/postreq tech?. We still have some very weak Techs in each era. And the back end of the Tree is an Unknown glut.

I think @pepper2000 would add content to those weak techs, as for future techs hes not done yet.

Now he is main content creator for techs.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I think @pepper2000 would add content to those weak techs, as for future techs hes not done yet.

Now he is main content creator for techs.

Pepper is not available most of the time to do any of this. And I mean All Eras need trimming done.

 

[raxo2222]

Pepper is not available most of the time to do any of this. And I mean All Eras need trimming done.

I guess hes busy since some time.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't see any weak techs in anything before Transhuman myself. Past that it's all in proposal form. I see a lot of gaps in some tech developments more past that point, and yes some things could be merged. Artistry and religion is completely ignored post Transhuman which is a shame. But it's all temporary until that end of the tree comes under more focus. Which will only happen if games can play that far. Starting to see a lot of memory issues at Industrial on Whisperr's game and there's a few things I can do but it's pretty early for that and it's concerning.

 

[pepper2000]

I hit my goal of 3+ pieces of new content for all future era techs (there's Nanopunk and maybe a couple of other exceptions; let us know what you have in mind specifically). I do have a list of additional ideas I would like to implement for some of the ones that are currently weaker, such as Sentient Energy Fields, Shapeshifting, and Endless Exploration, and also a few ideas for some of the earlier eras like at Encryption Machine, Decryption Machines, and Agrichemicals.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that I will be able to work on it any time soon. Just too much other stuff going on. I also got roped into a new game project. So all of my further ideas are only theoretical now.

Unless things have been significantly changed I don't know it, the Galactic, Cosmic, and Transcendent Eras are a bit sparser in the tech tree. Should be plenty of room for moving things around. But then again there isn't much reason for moving things around since whether any of this stuff is possible at all is highly speculative, let alone the order in which it would happen.

I think in general, I would be cautious about undertaking any major surgery to the tech tree unless there is a compelling reason to do so. Would trimming a few techs provide any material benefit for memory or game performance? Do we really have a problem of era boundaries (which have been debated and moved a few times already) being out of place? I can think of plenty of tweaks I would do, like splitting the first three eras into Paleolithic, Neolithic, and Ancient, but nothing that would be worth any major disruption over.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I don't see any weak techs in anything before Transhuman myself.

Really? I can probably point out several that could be combined for each era up thru Modern. For example right of the bat in Preh. The Deception and Theft tech could be combined. There are 2 or 3 that related to Fire in the Preh. And as pointed out before by DH the Equine, Elephant and Camel domestication techs could actually be one. Even the cat and dog techs, shall I go on? 2 different kinds of stone manipulation. Chasers and Tracking......I see a lot that could be combined or removed. I also understand it would be a Major project as well. But this mod really needs some squeezing to get the gas bubbles out and reduce bloat.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The Deception and Theft tech could be combined.

NO! One is for introducing Exiles and the other is for the upgrade, Thieves. I do think they might need to be separated out a bit further than the latest proposal perhaps but that could be achieved by simply having Theft require some AND prereqs of additional techs prior to its placement in the x-grid. Nevertheless, this is not an insignificant step difference.

There are 2 or 3 that related to Fire in the Preh

Each of which are distinct stages of development in fire as a technology being shown. For a long time we couldn't let fires go out because we didn't actually know how to start one. We just took advantage of where one had begun and cleverly kept embers burning until the next fire needed to be started.

I would suggest reading Clan of the Cavebear if things like this don't seem to be necessary to distinguish. It's really an excellent story of what this time period would have been like for mankind and even discusses the development of weapon technologies and more.

I am NOT a fan of blending all the animal domestication techs into one. In fact, I'm not a fan of merging techs at all. Not unless the tech is found to actually BE the same thing and we really overlooked that fact. We want more detail not less here and that's what has made this mod great to begin with. Where you are seeing bloat is clearly where I'm seeing detail and elegant design.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I expected this response. All about type of gameplay. Consider that you might be painting yourself into a corner with these constant additions that elongate the early game play. Actually overall game play for the Mod. The players that will play this mod for months in one game are getting older and the newer players don't have the patience for it. Are you catering to only a select group?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I expected this response. All about type of gameplay. Consider that you might be painting yourself into a corner with these constant additions that elongate the early game play. Actually overall game play for the Mod. The players that will play this mod for months in one game are getting older and the newer players don't have the patience for it. Are you catering to only a select group?

Yes

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ahhh……………...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I cater for a group of one. I mod for me. Most modders do truth be told.

 

[raxo2222]

I expected this response. All about type of gameplay. Consider that you might be painting yourself into a corner with these constant additions that elongate the early game play. Actually overall game play for the Mod. The players that will play this mod for months in one game are getting older and the newer players don't have the patience for it. Are you catering to only a select group?

Well, my space maps - one without AIs and other with single AI should be fast enough to be playable even on Eternity and at end of game.
They have Duel sized Earth part.
If you are Nightmare player, then there would be period of boredom before space colonization in Nanotech era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I wish the mod to cater to those who are sick to death of the industry dumbing down games and simplifying them to widen their audience.

 

[raxo2222]

Looks like we ended up with this calendar.
Since we don't display days and months beyond 1800 - 2200 AD time frame, I guess I can use day increments anywhere except Prehistoric (already used in 80% of all cases)
Era time frames and duration:

Prehistoric: 200 000 BC - 12 000 BC (188 000 years) // 50 000 BC would be at ~5% of game.
Ancient: 12 000 BC - 1200 BC (10 800 years)
Classical: 1200 BC - 450 AD (1650 years)
Medieval: 450 AD - 1400 AD (950 years)
Renaissance: 1400 AD - 1750 AD (350 years)
Industrial: 1750 AD - 1900 AD (150 years)
----
Modern: 1900 AD - 1990 AD (90 years)
Information: 1990 AD - 2050 AD (60 years) --- Shortest time step here.
Nanotech: 2050 AD - 2150 AD (100 years)
Transhuman: 2150 AD - 2300 AD (150 years)
Galactic: 2300 AD - 3000 AD (700 years)
Cosmic: 3000 AD - 4000 AD (1000 years)
Transcendent: 4000 AD - 6000 AD (2000 years)

OLD calendar:
Prehistoric: 200 000 BC - 6000 BC (194 000 years), 190 000 / 4000 years in first/last part.
Ancient: 6000 BC - 2000 BC (4000 years)
Classical: 2000 BC - 600 AD (2600 years)
Medieval: 600 AD - 1300 AD (700 years)
Renaissance: 1300 AD - 1700 AD (400 years)
Industrial: 1700 AD - 1900 AD (200 years)
----
Modern: 1900 AD - 1990 AD (90 years)
Information: 1990 AD - 2050 AD (60 years) --- Shortest time step here.
Nanotech: 2050 AD - 2150 AD (100 years)
Transhuman: 2150 AD - 2300 AD (150 years)
Galactic: 2300 AD - 3000 AD (700 years)
Cosmic: 3000 AD - 4000 AD (1000 years)
Transcendent: 4000 AD - 6000 AD (2000 years)

 

[Thunderbrd]

It looks right to me so far.

 

[raxo2222]

It looks right to me so far.

Time table is bit finicky to set for 6000 turn and longer game speeds after Industrial era, but few players will be in Industrial era on 6000 turn and longer games.
Mostly ones, who play on my space maps, that have small Earth part and no or single AI.
Also I let Prehistoric to last 9.77% of game - number is from what I calculated it would last roughly.

Fun fact: on Eternity turn is shorter than 1 year on Medieval - Cosmic eras and shorter than 2 months on Industrial - Transhuman eras.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I wish the mod to cater to those who are sick to death of the industry dumbing down games and simplifying them to widen their audience.

I think we've already achieved that. But we've created other problems as well.

 

[Osk21]

I expected this response. All about type of gameplay. Consider that you might be painting yourself into a corner with these constant additions that elongate the early game play. Actually overall game play for the Mod. The players that will play this mod for months in one game are getting older and the newer players don't have the patience for it. Are you catering to only a select group?

I am now on turn 2300 in a Mastery Game from last May and have recently started Noble and Prince Games. Can't wait to Found a city on the Moon and Mars or Asteroid!!!

 

[raxo2222]

I am now on turn 2300 in a Mastery Game from last May and have recently started Noble and Prince Games. Can't wait to Found a city on the Moon and Mars or Asteroid!!!

Space maps have small Earth part, this means relatively fast turns, which is good for playing till end of tech tree.
That is if you cut Earth from any existing space map and saved is at standalone map, then you would end up with Duel to Small sized map.
That is space maps are as fast as regular Duel - Small map all way to Nanotech era, when you start building real colonies.

Minor colonies - existing as improvements can be built in late Atomic and Information era.
Early space stations in late Atomic era, lunar bases and mid level stations in middle of Information era and late space stations at end of Information era.

Small sized map with Normal or Long game speed should be smooth enough:
Small map has 108x72 tiles.
That is 72 tiles to travel at max (from pole to pole).
Normal has 2000 turns - around 100 to 200 turns would be spent per each era (length of era roughly proportional to techs in era).
This means you should be able to explore your whole continent in first two eras.

 

[Osk21]

Space maps have small Earth part, this means relatively fast turns, which is good for playing till end of tech tree.
That is if you cut Earth from any existing space map and saved is at standalone map, then you would end up with Duel to Small sized map.
That is space maps are as fast as regular Duel - Small map all way to Nanotech era, when you start building real colonies.

Minor colonies - existing as improvements can be built in late Atomic and Information era.
Early space stations in late Atomic era, lunar bases and mid level stations in middle of Information era and late space stations at end of Information era.

Small sized map with Normal or Long game speed should be smooth enough:
Small map has 108x72 tiles.
That is 72 tiles to travel at max (from pole to pole).
Normal has 2000 turns - around 100 to 200 turns would be spent per each era (length of era roughly proportional to techs in era).
This means you should be able to explore your whole continent in first two eras.