Tech Tree Discussion

[Vokarya]

@Vokarya

I sent tech requests to SO for Rudder, Meritocracy and Divination.

Meritocracy was put a X30 Y1 and I made it a requirement for Philosophy (instead of Literature).

OK, that's fine. I was just looking for something appropriate to lead into Meritocracy.

Also, did you consider my suggestion for moving Gunpowder back to the Medieval era and putting it at X41 Y3? I know Realism Invictus has the Black Powder tech in the Medieval era, and then the Arquebus (our equivalent to Matchlock) in the Renaissance. I was thinking that raw gunpowder would be medieval, and guns would be Renaissance. That would help balance the numbers of techs per era.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also, did you consider my suggestion for moving Gunpowder back to the Medieval era and putting it at X41 Y3? I know Realism Invictus has the Black Powder tech in the Medieval era, and then the Arquebus (our equivalent to Matchlock) in the Renaissance. I was thinking that raw gunpowder would be medieval, and guns would be Renaissance. That would help balance the numbers of techs per era.

I feel that Gunpowder is one of the defining tech of the Renaissance. Its at the very beginning of it and I think it is good staying there. Note that we still have the Hand Cannon at Alchemy tech (Medieval Era) and Ancient Rocketeer at Ancient Ballistics tech (Classical Era).

I am not too worried about techs per era. Over time they will get filled in with more techs. No need to force the numbers to make them equal.

EDIT: On a side note compared to RoM/AND the techs we added to the Medeval Era so far are ...

1. Rudder
2. Fire Brigades*
3. Alchemy
4. Surveying
5. Mountaineering*
6. Charters
7. Stained Glass
8. Tournaments*
9. Clockpunk
10. Acoustics
11. Whaling

* = Were in AND as optional mods at one point.

 

[Azurian]

I would suggest that these may be better as units or labour civics or city specialists or a combination of these. It would give us more worker (or slave) types. In which case we need an existing tech or a new tech for them.

I agree, they should both be a "happier" option than Slavery ans should be included under Society.

Ok for this next tech i actually have it completed..

Cuneiform
Priority 8.5 /10
(x20 , y3)
Requires Senetary Lifestyle AND Arithmetic

The jump from Petroglyphs to Writing is too great, Cuneiform was used by many societies and is the "symbolic represention of the spoken language"

Required For Writing
+1 to Seal Maker
+1 to Fine Clay
+1 Trade Route

Cuneiform script is one of the earliest known forms of written expression. Emerging in Sumer around the 30th century BC, with predecessors reaching into the late 4th millennium (the Uruk IV period), cuneiform writing began as a system of pictographs. The cuneiform writing system was in use for more than 35 centuries, through several stages of development, from the 34th century BC down to the 1st century AD.[2] It was completely replaced by alphabetic writing (in the general sense) in the course of the Roman era and there are no Cuneiform systems in current use

Buildings:
Inventory Auditor
Courier Service
Hieroglyph Pyramid (requires Mayan OR Aztec Or Jivaro Or Olmec OR Egyptian Culture)
Move School of Scribes here



Calligraphy
Priority 8/10
(x 30 , y 9)
Requires Alphabet AND Aristocracy AND Literature
Required For Insurance AND Vassalage AND Aesthetics
+1 with Sheep OR Cow
+1 with Dyes

Calligraphy is used all over the world, (especially Asia), and is the next stage of Alphabet

Fancy penmanship, especially highly decorative handwriting, as with a great many flourishes. Calligraphy continues to flourish in the forms of wedding and event invitations, font design/typography, original hand-lettered logo design, religious art, announcements/graphic design/commissioned calligraphic art, cut stone inscriptions and memorial documents. It is also used for props and moving images for film and television, testimonials, birth and death certificates, maps, and other works involving writing. Some of the finest works of modern calligraphy are charters and letters patent issued by monarchs and officers of state in various countries.

Buildings:
Atlas Designer (bonus with Dyes..bonus to Recon Units)
Ink Brush Seller (bonus with Dyes)
Parchment Maker (requires Sheep or Cow.. creates Vellum..bonuses to Calligraphy buildings Replaced by Paper)
Religious Texts (should have Hydro's advanced Stats)
Birth Certificates (culture..)
Financial Documents (should add +1 and replace Seal Maker)
move Crime (Graffiti) here

They could become obsolete or be improved by Paper OR/aND Printing Press

 

[Vokarya]

I feel that Gunpowder is one of the defining tech of the Renaissance. Its at the very beginning of it and I think it is good staying there. Note that we still have the Hand Cannon at Alchemy tech (Medieval Era) and Ancient Rocketeer at Ancient Ballistics tech (Classical Era).

I am not too worried about techs per era. Over time they will get filled in with more techs. No need to force the numbers to make them equal.

Okay, it was just a suggestion. I agree, we will get more techs in each era. We are getting close to SIX times BTS's tech tree.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I thought Writing = Cuneiform. Its icon/button shows Cuneiform writing.

 

[Azurian]

I thought Writing = Cuneiform. Its icon/button shows Cuneiform writing.

They are actually two seperate things, Cunieform was made up of 2,000 to 10,000 pictorial symbols while writing was simplified over many centuries to just a few dozen abstract characters.

cunieform = pictographic proto-writing

writing= pictograms were simplified to represent a high level of abstraction

Alphabet = An alphabet is a standard set of letters which is used to write one or more languages based on the general principle that the letters represent phonemes (basic significant sounds) of the spoken language.


As you can see..cunieform uses pictographs to represent the object, writing reduces the object to an abstract form.. and alphabet represent sounds spoken to describe the object

Original Pictograph - Cunieform
Assyrian = Writing



here is another example


Cunieform to Writing



And then Writing evolved to Alphabets


I beleive Firaxis just combined the two together, but with Cunieform we can add buildings that happened before Writing.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Perhaps we should also then include a Pictograph tech even earlier.

I've always liked the idea of including Cuneiform as a tech. I realize Writing seems to boil it all into one definition, but perhaps the dividing line that defines Writing is a general advancement of Cuneiform into the use of Papyrus (an Egyptian achievement long after Sumerian Cuneiform) and a further refinement of standardized uses of symbols (not quite yet a fully defined alphabet that is differentiated by the ruled structure of mix'n match capacity to build words.)

 

[Azurian]

Perhaps we should also then include a Pictograph tech even earlier.

I've always liked the idea of including Cuneiform as a tech. I realize Writing seems to boil it all into one definition, but perhaps the dividing line that defines Writing is a general advancement of Cuneiform into the use of Papyrus (an Egyptian achievement long after Sumerian Cuneiform) and a further refinement of standardized uses of symbols (not quite yet a fully defined alphabet that is differentiated by the ruled structure of mix'n match capacity to build words.)

Then it would be...(in order)
Petroglyphs
Pictographs
Cuneiform
Writing
Alphabet
Literature
Calligraphy
Printing Press



Pictographs

Pictography is a form of writing which uses representational, pictorial drawings. It is a basis of cuneiform and, to some extent, hieroglyphic writing, which uses drawings also as phonetic letters or determinative rhymes.

This would be the tech tree...

Petrographs (prehistoric)
(x8 y 17)
Nothing changed

Pictographs (prehistoric) ~6,000 B.C
(x13, y15)
Requires Barter AND Stone Building
Required For Cuneiform AND Tribalism

Cuneiform (ancient) ~3000 B.C
(x19, y3)
Requires Arithmetic AND Chiefdom
Required For Writing AND Priesthood

Writing (ancient) ~900 B.C
(x25, y3) -same
Requires Cuneiform and existing techs

Alphabet (classical) ~ 300 B.C
(x27, y3) - same techs

Calligraphy(medieval)depends on region
(x 39 , y 13)
Requires Paper and Civil Service
Required For Education AND Banking AND Cartography

Printing Press(Renaissance)
(x42, x5)
-same

pectrographs

Spoiler :

pictographs

Spoiler :

cuneiform

Spoiler :

writing

Spoiler :

alphabet (think of greek and romans)

Spoiler :

calligaphy (remember this is by hand using ink brushes)

Spoiler :

 

[Azurian]

removed

 

[Thunderbrd]

you had it correct the first time I think : Petroglyphs

There's some really cool ones out in the Mohave desert I've seen. Neat stuff and goes back a LONG ways.


I'm wondering if Hieroglyphics should fall into the picture as an optional off-branch. It was an important step in some ways in that it represented such an advanced degree of writing just before alphabet that was intensely capable of multiple overlapping messages interpretable in different ways based on degrees of teaching. While it was truly an Egyptian accomplishment, it was hardly seen anywhere else, though the Chinese written language does have some similarities in approach.

 

[Azurian]

Actually Hierographs was found in Olmec, Mayan, Aztec, Egyptian and Jivaro cultures.
If you want it to split it has to come a little before Cuneiform.

Egyptian

​

Mayan

​

Aztec

​

Maybe..
Petrographs
Pictographs
................Hieroglyphs
Cuneiform
Writing
Alphabet
Literature
Calligraphy
Printing Press




Petrographs (prehistoric)
(x8 y 17)
Nothing changed


Pictographs (prehistoric) ~6,000 B.C
(x13, y15)
Requires Barter AND Stone Building
Required For Cuneiform AND Tribalism

We can put a couple of Native American stuff here, this tech could be mostly about Native american cultural buildings

Hieroglyphs (prehistoric) ~4,500 B.C
(x15 y 17)
Requires Ceremonial Burial AND Pictographs AND Arithmetic
Required For Megalith Construction

This way it doesn't become a requirement for Cuneiform we can put mesoamerica and egypt stuff

Cuneiform (ancient) ~3000 B.C
(x19, y3)
Requires Arithmetic AND Chiefdom
Required For Writing AND Priesthood

Done in clay

Writing (ancient) ~900 B.C
(x25, y3) -same
Requires Cuneiform and existing techs

Done in Vellum Parchment

Alphabet (classical) ~ 300 B.C
(x27, y3) - same techs

think of Greek and Roman Alphabets..

Calligraphy(medieval) depends on region
(x 39 , y 13)
Requires Paper and Civil Service
Required For Education AND Banking AND Cartography

Calligraphy was important in the religious and science texts of Europe but was very popular in Asia. Think of "old English" done by hand

Printing Press(Renaissance)
(x42, x5)
-same







@Thunderbrd
@hydro

So what do you think?

Visual guide

Spoiler :

pectrographs

Spoiler :

pictographs (mostly native american)

Spoiler :

Hieroglyphs (meso america and egypt)

Spoiler :

cuneiform

Spoiler :

writing

Spoiler :

alphabet (think of greek and romans)

Spoiler :

calligaphy (remember this is by hand using ink brushes)

Spoiler :

 

[Thunderbrd]

Cuneiform was the writing of the Sumerians, which predated the Egyptians and their Heiroglyphics.

Cuneiform writing was invented by the ancient Sumerians around 3500 B.C. Hieroglyphic writing was invented by the ancient Egyptians around 3200 B.C.

The two forms of writing differed from each other in at least the following ways:

Hieroglyphic writing represented consonants only. Cuneiform script represented whole syllables, including the vowels.
Although cuneiform script began as picture writing, its symbols rapidly evolved into abstract shapes that, in most cases, bore no resemblance to any actual object. Egyptian hieroglyphs remained recognizable pictures throughout the 3500-year history of the script.
Over its long history, cuneiform writing was adapted to the needs of a large number of languages, including the original Sumerian, Akkadian, Hittite, Elamite, Eblaite and Old Persian. Egyptian hieroglyphs were never applied to any language other than Egyptian itself.


The hieroglyphic writing system was ONLY used for ancient EGYPTIAN. The cuneiform writing system, started by the Sumerians, was then picked up and widely used by the Mesopotamian speakers of a Semitic** language unrelated to Sumerian -- the language of the Babylonians and Assyrians, called "Akkadian" by modern scholars. From there it spread further and was used to write other languages - esp. Elamite and Hittite.

So thus, Cuneiform would slightly predate, though it could well be a parallel possible discovery on the tech charts.

 

[Azurian]

Cuneiform was the writing of the Sumerians, which predated the Egyptians and their Heiroglyphics.


So thus, Cuneiform would slightly predate, though it could well be a parallel possible discovery on the tech charts.

Always good to have other sources..


Pictographs (prehistoric) ~5000 years ago,
(x14, y15)
Requires Arithmetic AND Stone Building AND Warfare
Required For Hieroglyphs AND Cuneiform AND Tribalism


Cuneiform (Ancient Era) ~3,500 B.C
(x20, y1)
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Chiefdom
Required For Writing


Hieroglyphs (Ancient Era) ~3,200 B.C
(x20 y3 )
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Megalith Construction
Required For Polytheism

I like you idea of having them in the same parallel text block...

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm not liking the 'required for Polytheism' bit on Hieroglyphics is all. Polytheism was alive and well in Sumeria and they never developed Hieroglyphics. Perhaps, instead, it should be a simple dead-end religious tech that gives Kemetism, as the specifics of that religion were deeply intertwined with the art of Hieroglyphics.

Additionally, this brings to mind that Mesopotamianism (Sumerian religion) was around BEFORE Kemetism... so somehow we have to ensure that its prereq arrives before Hieroglyphics. It really represented the invention of Polytheism and is considered one of the reasons a civilization could be established at all - the birth of structured religion allowed religious leaders to influence the populace enough to bring them together under a set of holy rules to live by, thus motivating mankind to 'civilize'. One COULD claim (even if it does disagree with the Sumerians themselves who claim that their Gods really did live among them guiding their civilization's development) that it sprouted from an advanced degree of storytelling that must have been developed as a result of the written mode of communication, thus it could stem from the development of Pictographs.

Thus, Polytheism, derived from Pictographs, would've been invented in many nebulous forms (not necessarily spawning into a full blown structured religion - consider all the african tribal beliefs, very polytheistic but not so organized) leading to access to:

Divine Guidance (or Structured Religion) (grants Mesopotamianism)(required for Sedentary Lifestyle)
perhaps should also lead to Slavery as this concept was born by the instructions of these early religious leaders.

and then:
Hieroglyphics (grants Kemetism and is a dead-end otherwise)
Requires Sedentary Lifestyle AND Megalith Construction (though perhaps Ceremonial Burial should be a requirement... this practice was in place in the first dynasties of Sumeria AND Egypt and it could be argued that Hieroglyphics may have initially been developed primarily through the religious acts of making notes on a person's life in their tombs.) From the notes, we can agree that Hieroglyphics was not developed by all cultures, very few in fact. The connection between the Egyptian Hieroglyphics and the symbolic languages of the New World are indeed highly noteworthy and some ancient aliens theorists have written some amazing documentation on the cause for these similarities. Anyhow, the point being that this should definitely be a dead-end, non-critical tech and what better dead-end cause do we have but Kemetism and some of those Egyptian style World Wonders? If not a complete dead-end, perhaps it could access a second, non-critical tech, Sacrifice Cult (along with some other requirements to break up the cluster) which grants Naghualism.

Cuneiform
Sedentary Lifestyle AND Chiefdom
Required For Writing (Cuneiform obviously was the root of nearly, if not just about ALL other forms of writing. Even the Chinese can trace some roots in Sumerian Cuneiform!)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Which could mean that diplomacy starts with Cuneiform or Hieroglyphs not Writing. A much better fit for C2C IMO especially if you play "Start As Minors".

 

[Azurian]

I'm not liking the 'required for Polytheism' bit on Hieroglyphics is all. Polytheism was alive and well in Sumeria and they never developed Hieroglyphics. Perhaps, instead, it should be a simple dead-end religious tech that gives Kemetism, as the specifics of that religion were deeply intertwined with the art of Hieroglyphics.

Please play around with the required for, to be honest I am almost clueless to what it should lead too. Maybe it should be a dead end tech that gives Kemetism like you said.


Pictographs (prehistoric) ~5000 years ago,
(x14, y15)
Requires Arithmetic AND Stone Building AND Warfare
Required For Hieroglyphs AND Cuneiform AND Tribalism

Cuneiform (Ancient Era) ~3,500 B.C
(x20, y1)
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Chiefdom
Required For Writing
+1 to Seal Maker
+1 to Fine Clay
+1 Trade Route
Courier Service
Ancient Auditor
Parchment Maker
(requires Sheep or Cow..creates Vellum..Replaced by Paper)


Hieroglyphs (Ancient Era) ~3,200 B.C
(x20 y3 )
Required For: None
+1 to Dyes
+1 to Papyrus
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Megalith Construction
First discovers Kemetism
Move School of Scribes here
Reed pen Seller

Which could mean that diplomacy starts with Cuneiform or Hieroglyphs not Writing. A much better fit for C2C IMO especially if you play "Start As Minors".

This would be an excellent choice, and perfect since both would be located in the beginning of the Ancient Era, a good time for minor civilizations to end. Just like Counter and Arithmetic, C2C needs early writing techs to lead to Writing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I'm not liking the 'required for Polytheism' bit on Hieroglyphics is all. Polytheism was alive and well in Sumeria and they never developed Hieroglyphics. Perhaps, instead, it should be a simple dead-end religious tech that gives Kemetism, as the specifics of that religion were deeply intertwined with the art of Hieroglyphics.

Not sure that this is the case.

Please play around with the required for, to be honest I am almost clueless to what it should lead too. Maybe it should be a dead end tech that gives Kemetism.

And what about the Mesoamerican religions Nagualismo and Andeanism?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Leave Hieroglyphics unnecessary unless you want those religions, I say. I've edited a few times since you guys posted... take note.
As a result, school of scribes should perhaps require EITHER cuneiform OR hieroglyphics.

 

[Azurian]

Not sure that this is the case.



And what about the Mesoamerican religions Nagualismo and Andeanism?

Even thou I agree with Thunderbrd after reading this i found a fix..

Maya writing used logograms complemented by a set of syllabic glyphs, somewhat similar in function to modern Japanese writing. Maya writing was called "hieroglyphics" or hieroglyphs by early European explorers of the 18th and 19th centuries who did not understand it but found its general appearance reminiscent of Egyptian hieroglyphs, to which the Maya writing system is not at all related.

Mesoamerica, like India, Mesopotamia, China, and Egypt, is one of the few places in the world where writing has developed independently. Mesoamerican scripts deciphered to date are logosyllabic, combining the use of logograms with a syllabary, and they are often called hieroglyphic scripts. Five or six different scripts have been documented in Mesoamerica but archaeological dating methods make it difficult to establish which was earliest and hence the forebear from which the others developed

http://www.ancientscripts.com/ws_types.html

Pictographs leads too:
Logograms (leads to Stargazing..mezoamerican and some asian )
Cuneiform (leads to Candle Making..european, african, sone asian)
Abugida (leads to Pottery..India, Afghanistan Pakistan and middle east also called Brāhmī
Syllabary (leads to Orchards..South Asia and Southeast Asia, Ethiopia and Japanses)
Hieroglyphs (leads to ancestor worship..egyptian and aztec)


You may ask, why does my civilization need to learn all those forms of prewriting? Well how can you communicate with others if u dont know their basic structure especially when playing as Minor Civilizations? We can use the tech Writing as an umbrella of all evolutions of prewriting writing down their writing systems.

Pictographs (prehistoric) ~5000 years ago,
(x14, y15)
Requires Arithmetic AND Stone Building AND Warfare Abugida AND Syllabary

add Native american

Logograms
(x16, 7)
+1 to jade
+1 to obsidian
Requires Pictographs AND Obsidian Weapons AND Hunting Tactics
Leads to: Stargazing
Sepentine Tablets
Jadeite Mask Carver
Royal stelae
Move Chitchin Itza here

Add mesoamerican stuff except Aztec

Cuneiform (Ancient Era) ~3,500 B.C
(x20, y1)
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Chiefdom
Required For Candle making
+1 to Seal Maker
+1 to Fine Clay
+1 Trade Route
Courier Service
Ancient Auditor
Parchment Maker
(requires Sheep or Cow..creates Vellum..Replaced by Paper)

Add europe and north africa

Hieroglyphs (Ancient Era) ~3,200 B.C
(x20 y3 )
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Megalith Construction
Leads to : Ancestor Worship
+1 to Dyes
+1 to Papyrus

First discovers Kemetism
Reed pen Seller

Add egypt and aztec stuff

Abugida
(x20, y5)
+1 to Incense
+1 to Spices
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Animal Riding
Leads to Pottery

Add ancient Indian and middle east stuff

Syllabary
(x20, y7)
1 to Fish
+1 to Prime Timber
Requires Pictographs AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Boat Building
Leads to Naval Warfare

Add south asian stuff abd japanese

 

[Azurian]

Logograms (leads to Stargazing..mezoamerican and some asian )
Cuneiform (leads to Candle Making..european, african, sone asian)
Abugida (leads to Pottery..India, Afghanistan Pakistan and middle east also called Brāhmī
Syllabary (leads to Orchards..South Asia and Southeast Asia, Ethiopia and Japanses)
Hieroglyphs (leads to ancestor worship..egyptian and aztec)

So should we go official and include all 5 families i mentioned above or just go with Cuneiform (leads to writing) and Hieroglyphs (leads to ancestor worship)?

Feel free to play around with this


Take a look:
http://www.ancientscripts.com/ws.html