Tech Tree Discussion

I got inspired by the discussion of the MMORPGs tech over in the Transhuman Era thread and I cooked up the idea of adding Chess as a Medieval-era technology. I am kind of using Chess as a proxy for all strategy games, but I think the name and iconography are strong enough to make Chess the tech name, especially given the worldwide and very long-lasting cultural impact of chess. What do you think of this?

New Techs

Chess (Medieval Era)
Location: X36 Y5
Cost: 800
Req Techs: Siege Warfare OR Feudalism
Leads to: Chivalry, Critical Thought
Allows: Board Game Maker, Chess Academy

Altered Techs
Chivalry
Required Techs: Armored Cavalry AND Chess AND Heraldry AND Poetry

Critical Thought
Required Techs: Chess AND Clockworks AND Divine Right

Buildings
Board Game Maker
Cost: 100 hammers
Required Techs: Chess
+1 happiness
+1 gold
+1 culture
+2% gold with Dye
+2% gold with Ivory
+2% gold with Prime Timber
Obsolete: Television

Chess Academy
Cost: 115 hammers
Required Techs: Chess AND Education
-2 gold
+1 culture
+1 science
+1 XP for new Archery, Gunpowder, Melee, Siege Units
Obsolete: Computers
 
Koshling said:
The earliest widespread one (that is still played today in much of Asia) would probably be go, dates from a couple thousand BC I believe.
Click to expand...

That's what I was trying to avoid by creating a specific Chess technology. We could have separate Games (Ancient Era) and Chess (Medieval Era) technologies. I really wanted another boost to the Medieval Era.
 
Hydromancerx said:
@Vokarya

Change he name from "Chess" to "Board Games" and I think it would be good since not all cultures had "Chess" but they did have their own types board games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_game
Click to expand...

You have a point. I really want to keep Chess as its own tech (since it looks like historically, chess spread in some way to many cultures that reached the Medieval Era), but I think there is also room for a Games technology, since games (like Go) date back to the Ancient Era. Here's a revision.

New Techs
Games (Ancient Era)
Cost: 110
Location: X25 Y19
Req Techs: Divination OR Trade
Leads to: Combat Sports, Chess
Allows: Toy Carver, Gambling Den

Chess (Medieval Era)
Cost: 800
Location: X36 Y5
Req Techs: Games AND (Siege Warfare OR Feudalism)
Leads to: Chivalry, Critical Thought
Allows: Chess Academy

Altered Techs
Combat Sports
Req Techs: Athletics AND Games

Chivalry
Req Techs: Armored Cavalry AND Chess AND Heraldry AND Poetry

Critical Thought
Req Techs: Chess AND Clockworks AND Divine Right

Buildings
Toy Carver
Req Techs: Games
Cost: 50 hammers
+1 happiness
Provides 1 Toys resource
+1 culture with Aristocracy
Replaced by Toy Maker
Obsolete: Industrialism
This is a proto-Toy Maker. It replaces the Board Game Maker in my original post. I think the two are similar enough that we don't need both.

Gambling Den
Req Techs: Games
Cost: 25 hammers
-2 hammers
+1 unhappiness
+5% gold
+10 crime
Replaced by Gambling Hall
Obsolete: Liberalism
This is a proto-Gambling Hall. It doesn't provide as much gold, but it has a flat -2 hammers instead of the -5% of the Hall. It also has no city size requirement.

Chess Academy
Req Techs: Chess
Cost: 115 hammers
-2 gold
+1 XP for new Archery, Gunpowder, Melee, Siege units
+1 culture
+1 science with Education
Obsolete: Computers
I modified this slightly, to have Education give the +1 science rather than be a required tech. Without Education, you get a strategy training tool, but you don't analyze it very deeply.

How does this sound?
 
strategyonly said:
Here's some theories on Gambling:

http://www.gypsyware.com/gamblingHistory.html
Click to expand...

There's definitely room for playing around with gaming technologies, something along the lines of the Sports line that we already have. I just wanted to keep the Chess tech, with the Chess name, at the medieval era. Legalized Gambling can be moved around - if Nevada's legalizing in 1931, that's late Industrial, not the Modern era where we have the tech.
 
What do you think about..

Manhood Ritual ----->Games ----->Chess ------>

Before games, the only actvity the male youth did was rituals like hunting games and finding their spiritual animal..

Chess was a big influence on War Strategy...maybe ir can be a prereq for a military tech.

Bard Games should be added..the romans had then..

maybe..
>Games -----> Board Games ----->Chess ------>Legalize Gambling --------->Arcade--------> War Simulations (added above Unmanned Air Vehicles)
 
MrAzure said:
What do you think about..

Manhood Ritual ----->Games ----->Chess ------>

Before games, the only actvity the male youth did was rituals like hunting games and finding their spiritual animal..

Chess was a big influence on War Strategy...maybe ir can be a prereq for a military tech.

Bard Games should be added..the romans had then..

maybe..
>Games -----> Board Games ----->Chess ------>Legalize Gambling --------->Arcade--------> War Simulations (added above Unmanned Air Vehicles)
Click to expand...

I'm not wild about Chess. It's a very western example. The East had strategy board games of equal strategic depth to chess far earlier, and indeed they were played in China by generals and nobles, and promoted as tools to hone strategic thinking at least a thousand years befoer chess came along. I would prefer to either go generic (strategy board games), or go specific with an earlier example (Go).
 
Koshling said:
I'm not wild about Chess. It's a very western example. The East had strategy board games of equal strategic depth to chess far earlier, and indeed they were played in China by generals and nobles, and promoted as tools to hone strategic thinking at least a thousand years befoer chess came along. I would prefer to either go generic (strategy board games), or go specific with an earlier example (Go).
Click to expand...

I would have to agree here, Chess is too much of a determining fact of where they play it, like Mahjong is to China.
 
strategyonly said:
I would have to agree here, Chess is too much of a determining fact of where they play it, like Mahjong is to China.
Click to expand...

If you insist, then I'll withdraw Chess. I know we want to avoid tech tree dead-ends, but this could be a possibility (in the far future). Can we keep the Games tech, though? That's the Ancient Era one.
 
Here's another tech that we discussed back on page 7 and seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle: Food Preservation. This is especially referring to large-scale canning as developed by Nicolas Appert. I think this would be a good place to move the Cannery to (since it's currently at Nationalism, of all places, although there is an additional requirement for Power that pushes it into the Industrial Era).

This is what I originally posted:

New Techs
Food Preservation (Industrial Era)
Location: X56 Y3
Cost: 4750 (equal to Medicine)
Req Techs: Steam Power AND (Battlefield Medicine OR Biology)
Leads to: Agricultural Engineering
Bonuses: +1 health in all cities
Allows: Cannery

Altered Techs
Agricultural Engineering
Req Techs: Agricultural Tools AND Crop Rotation AND Food Preservation AND Medicine

And then add the following additional change
Altered Techs
Microbiology
Req Techs: Biology AND Food Preservation

Would this be a good addition?
 
When I updated my Tech Tree files for MrAzure's excellent Transhuman Era work, I came across a new set of redundant tech prerequisites. This is probably incomplete, as I haven't looked too much into the effects of the Transhuman Era changes on Galactic Era techs. Also, some of these may be technologies that are going to be rebuilt with a different set of prerequisites -- in that case, just keep these in mind. Otherwise, can you please consider removing the redundant prerequisites?

  • Androids: Rapid Prototyping is redundant (Rapid Prototyping - Replacement Organs - Evolutionary Algorithms - Holographics - Advanced Computers - Androids)
  • Biodiversity Informatics: Biomathematics is redundant (Biomathematics - Augmented Reality - Biodiversity Informatics)
  • Biomathematics: Bioinformatics is redundant (Bioinformatics - Cloning - Biomathematics)
  • Brain-Machine Interface: Neurotechnology is redundant (Neurotechnology - Theoretical Physics - Brain-Machine Interface)
  • Cybernetics: Rapid Prototyping is redundant (Rapid Prototyping - Replacement Organs - Evolutionary Algorithms - Holographics - Bionics - Cybernetics)
  • Cyberpunk: Powered Exoskeleton is redundant (Powered Exoskeleton - Affective Algorithms - Exocortex Networks - Bionics - Cybernetics - Cyberpunk)
  • Fusion: Biomechanical Harvesting is redundant (Biomechanical Harvesting - TAEM Simulation - Fusion)
  • Fusion: Controlled Plasma is redundant (Controlled Plasma - Graphene - Fusion)
  • Holographics: Evolutionary Algorithms is redundant (Evolutionary Algorithms - Mesh Networks - Holographics)
  • Homo Superior: Rapid Prototyping is redundant (Rapid Prototyping - Replacement Organs - Evolutionary Algorithms - Holographics - Advanced Computers - Universal Translator - Homo Superior)
  • Hydroponics: Ecological Engineering is redundant (Ecological Engineering - Biodiversity Informatics - Hydroponics)
  • Invisibility: Nanogenerators is redundant (Nanogenerators - Stratosphere Warfare - Invisibility)
  • Marine Architecture: Aquaculture is redundant (Aquaculture - Biofuels - Ecological Engineering - Biodiversity Informatics - Marine Architecture)
  • Marine Architecture: Ecological Engineering is redundant (Ecological Engineering - Biodiversity Informatics - Marine Architecture)
  • Modular Armament: Machine Learning is redundant (Machine Learning - Military Robotics - Modular Armament)
  • Nanobotics: Cognitive Robotics is redundant (Cognitive Robotics - Machine Learning - Evolutionary Algorithms - Holographics - Wireless Electricity - Plastic Electronics - Nanoelectronics - Nanobotics)
  • Orbital Flight: Fuel Cells is redundant (Fuel Cells - Biofuels - Ecological Engineering - Biodiversity Informatics - Hydroponics - Rapid Recuperation - Novus Chemistry - Skyroads - Orbital Flight)
  • Plastic Electronics: Micromechanics is redundant (Micromechanics - Graphene - Fusion - Nanogenerators - Wireless Electricity - Plastic Electronics)
  • Plastic Electronics: Wearable Computers is redundant (Wearable Computers - Powered Exoskeleton - TAEM Simulation - Fusion - Nanogenerators - Wireless Electricity)
  • Railgun: Biomechanical Harvesting is redundant (Biomechanical Harvesting - Military Robotics - Railgun)
  • Railgun: Magnetic Levitation is redundant (Magnetic Levitation - Controlled Plasma - Graphene - Railgun)
  • Rapid Prototyping: Communication Networks is redundant (Communication Networks - Knowledge Management - Rapid Prototyping)
  • Universal Translator: Holographics is redundant (Holographics - Advanced Computers - Universal Translator)
  • Vertical Farming: Marine Architecture is redundant (Marine Architecture - Asymmetrical Architecture - Vertical Farming)
  • Wireless Electricity: Sophisticated Lasers is redundant (Sophisticated Lasers - Holographics - Wireless Electricity)
 
MrAzure said:
What do you think about..

Manhood Ritual ----->Games ----->Chess ------>

Before games, the only actvity the male youth did was rituals like hunting games and finding their spiritual animal..

Chess was a big influence on War Strategy...maybe ir can be a prereq for a military tech.

Bard Games should be added..the romans had then..

maybe..
>Games -----> Board Games ----->Chess ------>Legalize Gambling --------->Arcade--------> War Simulations (added above Unmanned Air Vehicles)
Click to expand...

I have to agree with Koshling about the Chess tech being too western. Likewise these game techs should be linked in some way to the existing Sports techs since the 2 are related.

The Sports techs are ...

- Athletics
- Combat Sports
- Martial Arts
- Tournaments
- Team Sports
- Lawn Sports
- Water Sports
- Modern Sports
- Motor Sports
- Extreme Sports

Of those listed possible links ...

Games -> Athletics

Tournaments -> Chess (Or whatever we re-name Chess to)
 
Hydromancerx said:
I have to agree with Koshling about the Chess tech being too western. Likewise these game techs should be linked in some way to the existing Sports techs since the 2 are related.

The Sports techs are ...

- Athletics
- Combat Sports
- Martial Arts
- Tournaments
- Team Sports
- Lawn Sports
- Water Sports
- Modern Sports
- Motor Sports
- Extreme Sports

Of those listed possible links ...

Games -> Athletics

Tournaments -> Chess (Or whatever we re-name Chess to)
Click to expand...

Games does not just mean the type of game played between two people moving rocks around. Racing is a game and sport, human, animal or combination. It is also linked to gambling.

The modern Olympics is a poor version of the classic era Celtic Lugnassad(sp?) which did not only have atheletic activities but also poetry and strategic game components.
 
Vokarya said:
New Techs
Games (Ancient Era)
Cost: 110
Location: X25 Y19
Req Techs: Divination OR Trade
Leads to: Combat Sports, Chess
Allows: Toy Carver, Gambling Den
Click to expand...

I think games should be much earlier. Possibly a Prehistoric tech. Maybe something like Ritualism AND Hunting. Simple games like tag or hide and seek could fall under this.
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Games does not just mean the type of game played between two people moving rocks around. Racing is a game and sport, human, animal or combination. It is also linked to gambling.

The modern Olympics is a poor version of the classic era Celtic Lugnassad(sp?) which did not only have atheletic activities but also poetry and strategic game components.
Click to expand...

The olympics has strategic game components look up chess boxing.:crazyeye:
 
Hydromancerx said:
I think games should be much earlier. Possibly a Prehistoric tech. Maybe something like Ritualism AND Hunting. Simple games like tag or hide and seek could fall under this.
Click to expand...

I don't think that prehistoric play differs from innate human behavior enough to be its own technology. What you are talking about would be SO far back on the tech tree that it would be somewhere around the development of intelligence, if not mammalian evolution. Games for me is using some kind of object or organization; that's why I put the Toy Crafter there. I can see the Civilopedia text for Games pointing at an early version of Athletics; I can't think of a building that would represent that. If Games had three buildings:
  • Toy Crafter
  • Gambling Den
  • early Sports Field (don't know a good name)
would that work?
 
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