Tech Tree Discussion

[Hydromancerx]

@Vokarya

I like these. If you have any more ideas for "religious" techs. Please post. Things like reincarnation and resurrection were concepts that were not specific to a single religion. Your Scriptures tech fits well into this idea.

 

[JosEPh_II]

When will this be hitting the SVN?

And I'm concerned about making 3 religion giving techs require Scripture as this may lead to another clustering of religions and we"re back to square 1 on tryin' to eliminate these clusters.

And if the Religion giving tech leads to another tech isn't this fraught with the same danger too?

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

When will this be hitting the SVN?

And I'm concerned about making 3 religion giving techs require Scripture as this may lead to another clustering of religions and we"re back to square 1 on tryin' to eliminate these clusters.

And if the Religion giving tech leads to another tech isn't this fraught with the same danger too?

JosEPh

I share JosEPh's concerns about that new tech, we want the religion founding techs to be seperated by a good bit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Need the original List included in SVN to test!!!
JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

When will this be hitting the SVN?

And I'm concerned about making 3 religion giving techs require Scripture as this may lead to another clustering of religions and we"re back to square 1 on tryin' to eliminate these clusters.

And if the Religion giving tech leads to another tech isn't this fraught with the same danger too?

JosEPh

Actually, it's only 2 religions requiring Scriptures: Hinduism and Judaism. I thought those two fit the best with the Vedas and the Torah. If you make the other prerequisites sufficiently diverse, then that should not cluster too much. While most religions have writings of some kind, the later ones don't need the technology spelled out because it will be required earlier for another prerequisite.

The only religion tech "chain" we have is the Judaism - Christianity chain, and Christianity will also require Theology, which is much further along. Judaism looks like it will be very early Classical Era, but Theology is at the beginning of the Medieval era. So even if you get Judaism first, you will have a long way to go to get to Christianity.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Okay sounds good. Thanks for the explanation.

Any idea when this will hit the SVN? (I'm dying here!)

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

Okay sounds good. Thanks for the explanation.

Any idea when this will hit the SVN? (I'm dying here!)

JosEPh

I will post this on the MantisBT board and then it should be seen and added. I don't do any editing to the Tech Tree myself. I add only to my own modules, including my own Python folder.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Okay sounds good. Thanks for the explanation.

Any idea when this will hit the SVN? (I'm dying here!)

JosEPh

We are waiting on MrAzure, since he is the tech guy now. Note that after the chnage the religions will need to be moved to the new techs and later when DH returns he may need to move the religious buildings/wonders around. Not to mention any balance issues. So don't expect it to be perfect.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Every change needs attention and I'm ready to give this some serious inspections. I believe this will also clear up some of the "other" problems that seem to continuously crop up. I truly believe this overhaul will eventually restore Religion founding balance and distribution between Player and AI. And then we won't have new ppl and older players too, coming in and saying Monasteries are too OP on science and culture or health. If you can't hog all the religions you can't have all the monasteries and the OP is gone.

I just hope this makes it in soon as it's hard for me to sit still on this issue. Gimme Gimme Gimme Now! Please!! ( Like Pacal and his gestures when he likes a trade)

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

Every change needs attention and I'm ready to give this some serious inspections. I believe this will also clear up some of the "other" problems that seem to continuously crop up. I truly believe this overhaul will eventually restore Religion founding balance and distribution between Player and AI. And then we won't have new ppl and older players too, coming in and saying Monasteries are too OP on science and culture or health. If you can't hog all the religions you can't have all the monasteries and the OP is gone.

I just hope this makes it in soon as it's hard for me to sit still on this issue. Gimme Gimme Gimme Now! Please!! ( Like Pacal and his gestures when he likes a trade)

JosEPh

I put Scriptures on the MantisBT board. I hope it will be added soon. Buildings and everything else can wait for the moment. I would like to see the Tech Tree get somewhat fixed.

 

[Koshling]

I put Scriptures on the MantisBT board. I hope it will be added soon. Buildings and everything else can wait for the moment. I would like to see the Tech Tree get somewhat fixed.

I noticed you'd put some requests on the tracker. Have you verified with the relevant modder (hydro in the case I'm thinking of i think, since it was moving a building to a different tech) is actually looking at the tracker?

Personally it's my preferred way of cording thin sand I find it much betr ro work from than posts on the general boards which can quickly get lost, but I'm unsure how many if the mod team are actually using it and/or checking it regularly (me and MrAzure for sure, but unsure about anyone else)

 

[Azurian]

This is the Tech Edits from Vokayra and Hydromancer I have to do:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Here's another set of tweaks to the tree that I have been looking at: the era for Photography, Romanticism, Realism, and Impressionism is wrong. All of these technologies date to the 1800's, which puts them more into the Industrial Era.

Historical dates are the following:

• Photography: first permanent photograph 1826, daguerreotypes 1839
• Romanticism: 1800-1840, reaction to the Age of Enlightenment
• Realism: 1850's, reaction to Romanticism
• Impressionism: 1872, first impressionist painting

I posted this idea a month ago, but no one responded. So I put together this for moving these techs around in the tree to better reflect their historical development.

Altered Techs

Photography
Era: Industrial
Location: X54 Y17
Cost: 4750
Prerequisite Techs: Chemistry AND Patent Rights
(I'm using Patent Rights as a proxy for early-industrial inventing.)

Romanticism
Era: Industrial
Location: X55 Y1
Cost: 4000
Prerequisite techs: Enlightenment AND Free Artistry AND Steam Power
(Chivalry becomes redundant: Chivalry - Leadership - Nationalism - Replaceable Parts - Steam Power)

Realism
Era: Industrial
Location: X56 Y1
Cost: 4800
Prerequisite techs: Photography AND Romanticism
(Liberalism becomes redundant: Liberalism - Social Contract - Constitution - Corporation - Steam Power - Romanticism - Realism)

Impressionism
Era: Industrial
Location: X58 Y1
Cost: 5000
Prerequisite techs: Realism
(Nationalism becomes redundant: Nationalism - Replaceable Parts - Steam Power - Romanticism - Realism - Impressionism)

What do you think? Does this sound like a good idea?

Ok how about this? All religious techs are dead end techs.

Spoiler :

Animism
Era: Prehistoirc
Req Techs: Personal Adornment AND Petroglyphs
Cost: 25
Location: X12 Y19
Leads To: Ceremonial Burrial
Notes: Takes the Place of Shamanism tech.

Shamanism
Era: Prehistoirc
Req Techs: Animism
Cost: 30
Location: X13 Y19

Druidism
Era: Prehistoirc
Req Techs: Naturopathy AND Megalith Construction
Cost: 60
Location: X17 Y19

Tengriism
Era: Prehistoirc
Req Techs: Animism AND Horseback Riding
Cost: 70
Location: X18 Y15

Yoruba
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Folk Dance AND Folk Music
Cost: 90
Location: X21 Y19

Mesopotamism
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Caste System AND Pottery
Cost: 100
Location: X22 Y19

Shintoism
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Ancestor Worship AND Animism
Cost: 105
Location: X23 Y13

Ngaiism
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Dualism AND Livestock Domestication
Cost: 105
Location: X23 Y15

Resurrection
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Divination AND Sacrifice Cult
Cost: 105
Location: X23 Y17

Kemetism
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Polytheism AND Stargazing
Cost: 110
Location: X25 Y13

Karma
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Polytheism AND Divination
Cost: 110
Location: X25 Y15
Leads to: Meritocracy, Meditation, Reincarnation

Hinduism
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Karma AND Folk Dance
Cost: 115
Location: X26 Y15

Reincarnation
Era: Ancient
Req Techs: Karma AND Ancestor Worship
Cost: 115
Location: X26 Y17
Leads To: Philosophy

Asatru
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Polytheism AND Ship Building
Cost: 125
Location: X28 Y1

Zoroastrianism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Dualism AND Monotheism
Cost: 125
Location: X28 Y3

Judaism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Monotheism AND Priesthood AND Resurrection
Cost: 125
Location: X28 Y5

Andeanism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Polytheism AND Construction
Cost: 240
Location: X30 Y5

Naghualism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Polytheism AND Calendar
Cost: 240
Location: X30 Y7

Buddhism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Meditation AND Reincarnation
Cost: 125
Location: X30 Y13

Hellenism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Polytheism AND Athletics
Cost: 240
Location: X30 Y15

Confucianism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Meditation AND Meritocracy
Cost: 300
Location: X31 Y1

Sikhism
Era: Medieval
Req Techs: Monotheism AND Philosophy
Cost: 400
Location: X34 Y5

Jainism
Era: Classical
Req Techs: Meditation AND Aesthetics
Cost: 300
Location: X34 Y13

Christianity
Era: Medieval
Req Techs: Theology AND Judaism
Cost: 350
Location: X36 Y5

Voodoo
Era: Medieval
Req Techs: Resurrection AND Fundamentalism
Cost: 510
Location: X37 Y5

Taoism
Era: Medieval
Req Techs: Meditation AND Martial Arts
Cost: 510
Location: X37 Y13

Islam
Era: Medieval
Req Techs: Monotheism AND Education AND Resurrection
Cost: 1250
Location: X40 Y11

Mormon
Era: Renaissance
Req Techs: Representative Democracy AND Christianity AND Resurrection
Cost: 3900
Location: X52 Y11

Bahá'í
Era: Industrial
Req Techs: Steam Power AND Islam AND Christianity AND Buddhism
Cost: 4160
Location: X56 Y7

Scientology
Era: Modern
Req Techs: Globalization
Cost: Same as Globalization
Location: X76 Y5

*phew*

Included are some new non religion specific techs (Animism, Karma, Reincarnation and Resurrection).

Tell me what you guys think? I think this works nicely. Especially with the supplementing techs.

EDIT: Note that all religion techs should have the same buttons as their religious icons, but the the other techs will need a new buttons (except for Animism which can use the Shamanism tech button).

Also I can chnage the name of the "Shaman's Hut" to "Sage's Hut" to unlink it to Shamanism.

With the discussion on new religion technologies, I noticed there was one concept that we have not yet included, and that is the technology of Scriptures. It was in World of Legends, and I think it is worth including. This is the Scriptures technology as originally included in World of Legends.



I would change this up just a little by moving it back into the late Ancient Era, as the early Vedas and Torah date to the Late Bronze Age. Also, move the requirements around to blend it better into our tech tree.

New Techs
Scriptures (Ancient Era)
Cost: 110
Location: X25 Y19
Req Techs: Priesthood AND Writing AND (Dualism OR Monotheism OR Polytheism)
Allows: State Church civic
Leads to: Calligraphy, Hinduism, Judaism, Literature, Meditation

Altered Techs

Calligraphy
Req Techs: Aristocracy AND (Calendar OR Code of Laws OR Literature OR Scriptures)
(I don't think Calligraphy needs to have that many AND prerequisites. I think requiring Aristocracy plus one other technology is enough. We can discuss having two or three AND prerequisites, but I think four or five is too many.)

Hinduism
Req Techs: Folk Dance AND Karma AND Scriptures

Judaism
Req Techs: Monotheism AND Resurrection AND Scriptures

Literature
Req Techs: Alphabet AND (Polytheism OR Scriptures)

Meditation
Req Techs: Monotheism AND Scriptures

Scriptures could be added to or replace tech requirements in some of the other religions that have significant religious texts. Keep in mind that the Scriptures - Meditation - Theology chain will make Scriptures redundant for many later religions.

Buildings attached to Scriptures could include a first version of the Scriptorium, and then improve the Scriptorium with Calligraphy and Theology. Scriptures could also give a small culture bonus to School of Scribes.

What do you think? I can post this on the MantisBT forum if you think it's a good idea.

 

[Vokarya]

I noticed you'd put some requests on the tracker. Have you verified with the relevant modder (hydro in the case I'm thinking of i think, since it was moving a building to a different tech) is actually looking at the tracker?

Personally it's my preferred way of cording thin sand I find it much betr ro work from than posts on the general boards which can quickly get lost, but I'm unsure how many if the mod team are actually using it and/or checking it regularly (me and MrAzure for sure, but unsure about anyone else)

I'll send a PM. I like posting individual suggestions there so that they don't get lost in the torrent of posts on this forum. It shouldn't be too long until we start closing in on Rise of Mankind for project with the third-most posts (of course, the top two are Fall from Heaven and Rhye's and Fall, which would require a LOT of work on our part to match!).

 

[Vokarya]

This is the Tech Edits from Vokayra and Hydromancer I have to do:

I slightly tweaked my suggestion about Calligraphy on the tracker. Could you explain a little more why Calendar is required for Calligraphy? The two don't seem to go that much together. I think Aristocracy + (Code of Laws OR Literature OR Scriptures) would be a sufficient set of prerequisites for Calligraphy. You have to have an upper class that can devote time to art (Aristocracy) and then something requiring a lot of writing, either legal (Code of Laws), artistic (Literature), or religious (Scriptures). Any of those would spark the development of calligraphy.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I noticed you'd put some requests on the tracker. Have you verified with the relevant modder (hydro in the case I'm thinking of i think, since it was moving a building to a different tech) is actually looking at the tracker?

Personally it's my preferred way of cording thin sand I find it much betr ro work from than posts on the general boards which can quickly get lost, but I'm unsure how many if the mod team are actually using it and/or checking it regularly (me and MrAzure for sure, but unsure about anyone else)

I have not set it up yet. If there is anything urgent you guys need done, please let me know.

 

[Azurian]

I slightly tweaked my suggestion about Calligraphy on the tracker. Could you explain a little more why Calendar is required for Calligraphy? The two don't seem to go that much together. I think Aristocracy + (Code of Laws OR Literature OR Scriptures) would be a sufficient set of prerequisites for Calligraphy. You have to have an upper class that can devote time to art (Aristocracy) and then something requiring a lot of writing, either legal (Code of Laws), artistic (Literature), or religious (Scriptures). Any of those would spark the development of calligraphy.

What do you recommend for each Tech affected?

 

[Vokarya]

What do you recommend for each Tech affected?

I just recommend not requiring Calendar at all for Calligraphy, that's all. All my other suggestions are on the Tracker.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Ok I had to fix some locations but here is is the online tech tree with the added techs. The new religious techs are in magenta so they can be easily found.

@MrAzure

Please add these techs (and chnage the Shamanism tech) to these specifications. The list should be correct now.

Many thanks in advance!

For MrAzure as I don't think he's seen this yet.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

For MrAzure as I don't think he's seen this yet.

JosEPh

Then why did he quote me in this post?

 

[ls612]

Then why did he quote me in this post?

JosEPh is just really anxious to see his ideas in-game, it may actually be a first.