Tech Tree Discussion

[Thunderbrd]

So we need to simply set some, perhaps most Goods resources to being usable (thus available for trade) long before the technology that gives access to the building that can build it. This is an interesting line of thought in itself as it asks questions like, at what point would a group of people be able to figure out how to USE a cell phone even if they couldn't manufacture them? Would it be at language? Perhaps Alphabet so they could understand a 'phone #' or texting if shown how to do so.

 

[tmv]

You should have electricity, otherwise your cell phone becomes useless in a week or two.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

You should have electricity, otherwise your cell phone becomes useless in a week or two.

Not necessarily. If you are given a solar station to charge it you don't need electricity. In fact that is how it works in the Kalahari Desert with the nomads there.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Isn't the solar station providing electricity?

 

[tmv]

As soon as anything breaks you are in trouble. You still need replacement parts (for the solar station) and a few people who really know what they are doing. Interdependency between different devices has really gone up since the Industrial Era.

 

[JosEPh_II]

As soon as anything breaks you are in trouble. You still need replacement parts (for the solar station) and a few people who really know what they are doing. Interdependency between different devices has really gone up since the Industrial Era.

Isn't that the truth!

I started putting solar panels up 3 years ago. I have 8 up right now using 3 On-grid inverters. 2 1000W and 1 600W. But the 2 1000W need different panel configurations because one needs 12-18 Dc volts input while the other needs 22-60DC inputs. Currently all my panels are 120W 17VDC 8Amp max output. And these panels and inverters can't even come close to keeping my house running during the day. Good month I chop about 200-400KW usage off my electric bill. But I need to triple that to get close to breaking even. Plus I need a battery storage system for the night time. And batteries for these systems are Not cheap!

Yep interdependency is killing innovation impo.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Isn't the solar station providing electricity?

Yes but that doesn't mean you know the tech "electricity". It is just a magic box that turns sunlight into food for the telephone. lol

 

[Thunderbrd]

So perhaps solar stations should be tradeable as well, and offer electricity to the city.

 

[MacCoise]

Has anyone read the book Salt: A World History?

It's quite interesting if a bit stretched in places but I think it makes a strong case for Pickling to be an early tech alongside Drying. Basically an early way of using Salt to preserve food.

The book also has an interesting part about the Chinese using natural gas flows to produce salt:

http://csegrecorder.com/articles/view/ancient-chinese-drilling

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There was at least one stone age city in Europe that was based solely on salt trade.

The problem is limiting it to realistic amounts of the building. Currently we should just get rid of it as a resource by the Middle Ages as by then almost every city can build a means of producing it and it just becomes clutter.

 

[tmv]

I think there are a few ressources that are produced by one map ressource "AND salt".

 

[pepper2000]

Yes, without salt, Lithium mines become impossible to build, and a large fraction of the Transhuman building tree depends on lithium. We could rely on salt deposits on the map, but I find that maps often don't put Salt and Lead close together.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

Wheres the formula for the tech costs? I changed some techs in Prehistoric era; its much longer and ends with Writing or Specialization and Musical Notation, Poetry, Literature are pushed to the Aechenit era and Paved Roads are pushed back a bit. Gunpowder, Oil Painting, Divine Right and Vassalage are in the Medieval era. What do you think of this?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Wheres the formula for the tech costs?

I was going to link you to it but it looks like the chart has been made to look terrible with the forum update. I'll probably have to repost it, which I'll do soon.

Off the top I can't see much I'd agree with in the changes you've made and propose but I encourage you to tinker and if you like what you've done, make it a modmod for others.

 

[pepper2000]

Hi Sir Monster,

If you are getting a modmod ready, please post it here. There's been a lot of discussion about how to improve (if improvement is needed) the tech tree for the first few eras. The Medieval Era in particular needs some work, and we will probably be expanding that at some point.

Traditionally the term "Prehistoric" has meant "before Writing", though I think the word is falling out of use in academic circles. The way we use it, "Prehistoric" means roughly "before Agriculture". It's already a long era, so I would be concerned that your changes would be making it too long unless we split it up.

Gunpowder could arguably be in the Medieval Era. I think Oil Painting, which became common in the 15th century, belongs in the Renaissance; indeed, it is probably the best tech we have that captures Renaissance art. For Divine Right, I think the tech refers specifically to the theory of divine right of kings as presented by Jean Bodin, so that belongs squarely in the Renaissance, but there are other, older concepts such as the Mandate of Heaven to which this could refer. As for the other changes you suggest, I don't have strong views on way or the other.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

Hi Sir Monster,

If you are getting a modmod ready, please post it here. There's been a lot of discussion about how to improve (if improvement is needed) the tech tree for the first few eras. The Medieval Era in particular needs some work, and we will probably be expanding that at some point.

Traditionally the term "Prehistoric" has meant "before Writing", though I think the word is falling out of use in academic circles. The way we use it, "Prehistoric" means roughly "before Agriculture". It's already a long era, so I would be concerned that your changes would be making it too long unless we split it up.

Gunpowder could arguably be in the Medieval Era. I think Oil Painting, which became common in the 15th century, belongs in the Renaissance; indeed, it is probably the best tech we have that captures Renaissance art. For Divine Right, I think the tech refers specifically to the theory of divine right of kings as presented by Jean Bodin, so that belongs squarely in the Renaissance, but there are other, older concepts such as the Mandate of Heaven to which this could refer. As for the other changes you suggest, I don't have strong views on way or the other.

I know that Prehistoric means to you "before Agriculture", but i want to include the all the lithic eras into one era, to make it easier for me to separate them into many eras. As for the divine right thing, i made into the middle of the end of Medieval tech tree, because of the fact that the idea that kings, monarchs, have power given to them by the gods, was well known during the Middle ages, even though technically, it could fit in the Classical, Medieval or Renaissance, respectively. The Oil Painting thing, is my philosophy around tech placement; i like techs to be placed at their earliest known date if they exist, the Oil Painting tech is one example along with Music and Poetry, which is in the Ahecanit era and Archery is in the middle of the Prehistoric era, behind Atalt Making.

 

[Thunderbrd]

the fact that the idea that kings, monarchs, have power given to them by the gods, was well known during the Middle ages, even though technically, it could fit in the Classical, Medieval or Renaissance, respectively.

If that's how we are to view Divine Right, then it should be the opening of the Ancient Era, as it was the very concept that gave birth to civilization itself in Sumeria. The original Civ designers were looking for the Papacy in this, where the Pope, as a representative of the religion rather than a given nation, was given to legitimize the rule of the leaders of those nations that declared themselves Catholic. There was also a rise of the Caliphate around the same time that this represented.

As a 'tech' it's not really well qualified as a human discovery exactly, but maybe more of a propogandic development that took more powerful shape at that time.

echs to be placed at their earliest known date if they exist,

This discussion was brought up a few years back and the determination for C2C's tech tree decisions was made on the opposite - when a technology reached a critical point of application, not at the moment of discovery itself. This helped to solve problems that are introduced when you have:

Archery is in the middle of the Prehistoric era, behind Atalt Making.

Which would mean that a unit is introduced and obsoleted just another tech or two away, which although historically accurate, is terrible for gameplay timing.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

This discussion was brought up a few years back and the determination for C2C's tech tree decisions was made on the opposite - when a technology reached a critical point of application, not at the moment of discovery itself. This helped to solve problems that are introduced when you have:

So what you're saying is that this thing X (Bows, for example), exist at this time, but arent widely available or wasn't thought as useful until the Archery tech was reached? If that is so, then does that mean that automobiles, may exist during the early Industrial era, but weren't used until you researched Motorized Transportation? Im I not getting this?

 

[tmv]

Otherwise, you would have the Steam Engine in Classical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile), Vertical Flight / Armored Warfare at the start of Renaissance (http://www.da-vinci-inventions.com/) and the Computer at the start of Industrial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine). This would make for a very chaotic tech tree.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So what you're saying is that this thing X (Bows, for example), exist at this time, but arent widely available or wasn't thought as useful until the Archery tech was reached?

Basically, yes.

If that is so, then does that mean that automobiles, may exist during the early Industrial era, but weren't used until you researched Motorized Transportation?

There was time between the invention of the internal combustion engine and the mass production of anything that utilized it (the first horseless carriages). I'm not going to get into explaining the timing and labelling of the techs surrounding this invention because I'd have to go and do some research to see how another modder had thought it through specifically.

But another example that may be more fitting.

The Gunpowder tech immediately opens up the application of gunpowder into weaponized form that enables units (the Arquebusier) that actually aren't all that crude when you look deeper at the history of gunpowder weaponization. Its placement on the tree does represent this point where the Arquebus began to be seen regularly as an available weapon and gunpowder became a regularly manufactured and traded commodity. However, gunpowder was REALLY invented in China centuries earlier and had been used in numerous crude weaponized formats, including fireworks, which the Hwacha special unit represents, as well as the bombardier.

EDIT: And everything tmv just said!