Tech Tree Discussion

[Sir Monster The Great]

Otherwise, you would have the Steam Engine in Classical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile), Vertical Flight / Armored Warfare at the start of Renaissance (http://www.da-vinci-inventions.com/) and the Computer at the start of Industrial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_Engine). This would make for a very chaotic tech tree.

That brings up an interesting point. I fell that Clockpunk should be in Renaissance, and split into 2 more techs, Medieval Flight and DaVinci Armored Warfare. Clockpunk should also have some early science buildings, such as Anemometer Workshop, which would require Weather Forecasting. I also feel that certain Civs and cultures, have techs associated with them, such as the Greeks and the Aeolipile, the same way the Hwacha unit represents early gunpowder units. I think that the Analytical Engine should have its own tech, maybe Analog Computing?

 

[Thunderbrd]

That brings up an interesting point. I fell that Clockpunk should be in Renaissance, and split into 2 more techs, Medieval Flight and DaVinci Armored Warfare. Clockpunk should also have some early science buildings, such as Anemometer Workshop, which would require Weather Forecasting. I also feel that certain Civs and cultures, have techs associated with them, such as the Greeks and the Aeolipile, the same way the Hwacha unit represents early gunpowder units. I think that the Analytical Engine should have its own tech, maybe Analog Computing?

I'm gonna let Pepper and Hydro work with these kinds of suggestions.

 

[pepper2000]

That's an interesting idea. I've got my hands full with the space colonization material and so I can't put time into implementing these things myself, but feel free to design a modmod and post it. Some techs like the -Punk techs and Megafauna Domestications are alt-history, meaning these are ways that people imagine history could have unfolded but didn't really.

Up till now, the alt-history timelines have been a single tech each. Putting out several techs would be a departure from what we've done, but there is no reason why not. I would point out that the Analytical Engine is already in the game as the Municipal Computing Engine, which requires Steampunk.

If you haven't done a modmod before, my suggestion is to go through the C2C folder and look at one of the existing alt-history folders. Most of them have techs, buildings, and units, so that should give you plenty of material to use as a template. Once you got something interesting, test it out and post it to the modmod folder. A word of warning: what you think is going to be a simple project might expand far beyond what you expected. That's what happened to me.

In order to incorporate material into the main C2C mod, there will have to be a consensus among the team that it is worth being included. If you want something to be included, your case will be much stronger if you have already designed it so we can see what it looks like, rather than just discussing it theoretically on the forum.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ancient Steam tech I believe was proposed before as "Sandal-punk" I don't really like that name but we do lack early era "punks". The only early era "punk" we have is the megafauna domestication i the prehistoric era. Note there is also "Bronzepunk" and "Ironpunk". Such I think we should consider. The whole ancient steam stuff should fall into one of those.

Clockpunk should stay in the Renaissance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_derivatives#Postcyberpunk
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SandalPunk

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

Ancient Steam tech I believe was proposed before as "Sandal-punk" I don't really like that name but we do lack early era "punks". The only early era "punk" we have is the megafauna domestication i the prehistoric era. Note there is also "Bronzepunk" and "Ironpunk". Such I think we should consider. The whole ancient steam stuff should fall into one of those.

Clockpunk should stay in the Renaissance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_derivatives#Postcyberpunk
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SandalPunk

You might want to consider Stonepunk, which is something like the Flintstones cartoon. Check it out here fore more information: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StonePunk.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So the following are techs taken from the Game "Forge of Empires". Thier tech tree is a bit wonky but we might want to use some of their techs.Note i will list their era but we can adjust for our tech tree)

- Teaching (Bronze Age)
- Manuring (Bronze Age)
- Procession (Iron Age)
- Thermae (Iron Age) - Where Public Baths would go.
- Chain of Command (Iron Age)
- Executions (Early Middle Ages) - Where Gallows would go.
- Quality Products (High Middle Ages)
- Higher Education (Late Middle Ages)
- Pest Control (Late Middle Ages)
- Fashion (Colonial Age)
- Rapid Response (Colonial Age)
- Malthusian theory (Colonial Age)
- The West (Industrial Age)
- Precision Tools (Colonial Age)
- Boarding Houses (Industrial Age)
- Flanking Tactics (Industrial Age)
- Breech Loading (Industrial Age)
- Traffic Lanes (Progressive Era)
- Modern Materials (Progressive Era)
- Precision Fuse (Progressive Era)
- Power Distribution (Progressive Era)
- Mass Mobilization (Progressive Era)
- Scoped Riffles (Progressive Era) - Sniper goes here.
- Prefabrication (Modern Era)
- Autobahns (Modern Era)
- 24/7 Service (Modern Era)
- Advertisement (Modern Era)
- Commercial Aviation (Modern Era)
- Rapid Deployment (Modern Era)
- High Society (Post-Modern Era)
- Children's Right (Post-Modern Era)
- Local Purchasing (Contemporary Era)
- Financial Services (Contemporary Era)
- Stress Management (Contemporary Era)
- Nightlife (Tomorrow)
- Land Reclamation (Tomorrow)
- Tidal Power (The Future)
- Underground Housing (The Future)
- Food Engineering (The Future) - They have a food printer.
- Self Supporting Homes (The Future)

They also have a tech for each house type like Roof Tiled Houses or Thatched Roofs. I am unsure if we wan to go that far.

We can use some, all or even none of these I just wanted to present them. There are more techs that might be used but these are the ones that stood out to me that looked a bit different than what we have already.

 

[Thunderbrd]

- Executions (Early Middle Ages) - Where Gallows would go.

There's probably a few things that could go here where they now go in less valid spots. LE was kinda tacked on in some odd places in this region.

I like a lot of these tech concepts. We just gotta make sure they have meaningful cause for inclusion.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Out of the list i think these are ones iw ould like to try to get added first ...

- Thermae - For Public Baths
- Executions - Where Gallows would go.
- Pest Control - With a new Rat Catcher Building to counter Pets (Rats).
- Fashion - Surprised we did not already have this.
- Prefabrication - This seem unique enough to add.
- Children's Right - Since we have Women's and Minority Right I think this should be there as well.

I will try to get up some stats for these soon.

 

[pepper2000]

I have a couple of ideas that are far down on my todo list.

- Statistics. Early Industrial, requires Assembly Line (and maybe others) and leads to Modern Sanitation (and maybe others). Allows a National Census, provide bonuses to various scientific and manufacturing buildings.
- Scientific Management. Late Industrial, requires Industrialism and leads to Logistics. Improve factory production and military bases. Allows a Management School.
- Computer Science. Early Modern. I have a DARPA wonder in Space Colonization that might be moved to Computer Science. Maybe a Tech Startup Incubator could go here, though that doesn't feel quite right.
- Abstract Mathematics. Late Industrial or Early Modern. This would be a catchall for much of modern mathematics, including abstract algebra, combinatorics, topology, etc.
- Postmodernism. Mid-Modern. Since we have several other techs encapsulating intellectual movements (e.g. Enlightenment, Romanticism), Postmodernism fits too. Would have to think of appropriate content.
- Existential Risk Management. Early Transhuman. Allow Center for [AI/Nanotech/Biotech] Safety, Asteroid Census.
- Smart Cities. Late Modern or Early Transhuman. Move the housing buildings at Rapid Prototyping here. I have a Megacities tech in the early Transhuman Era in the Space Colonization modmod, but it is starting to get overloaded enough that some content there could be moved to Smart Cities.

 

[Hydromancerx]

A few of those I am surprised we don't have. I will have to look closer maybe some are just under another name? If they don't exist already then good ideas there.

EDIT: I guess we just had Modern Art and Pop Art and no Postmodernism.

As for Computer Science we have "Electronics", "Early Computing", "Semiconductors", "Personal Computer", "Computer Networks", "Microprocessor" and "Wearable Computers". Yours would probably fin in fine I think.

 

[pepper2000]

Thanks. I might work them in at some point, but I'm more focused on far future content right now.

 

[pepper2000]

Some of the Modern Era is out of order, and I'd like to put the techs into something closer to their proper historical order. In particular, most of the space exploration techs come too late relative to others (Satellites and Fiber Optics in the same column?). Here are my proposed changes. These are meant only as the first of several rounds of adjustments in the Modern Era (e.g. I also want to move Neural Networks a bit earlier and Aquaculture later, but haven't decided how exactly). If everyone is OK with these, I will update the SVN soon.

Tech Changes
Advanced Rocketry: x82 -> x81. Requires Jet Propulsion and Early Computing (not Personal Computers)
Satellites: x84 -> x82
Astronautics: x85 -> x83
Astro Environmental Systems: x87 -> x84
Lunar Exploration: x88 -> x85.
Astrogeology: x85 -> x84.
Volcanology: x86 -> x85
Space Stations: x88 -> x85
Planetary Exploration: x90 -> x86
Fiber Optics: x84 -< x86. Requires Microprocessor
Gene Manipulation requires Gastronomy
Ion Propulsion: x86 -> x87. Requires Fuel Cells instead of Composites
3D Printing: x86 -> x89. Requires Knowledge Management + Composites (not 3D Modeling)

Building Changes
National Aerospace Agency does not require Computers.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have been updating the online tech tree and I found some weird tech locations. I sudgest the following be moved.

Veterinary Medicine
Location: X30 Y17

Canaanism
Location: X31 Y17

They way it was before is that Canaanism was sitting below Classical Lifestyle in the wrong era. That made no sense. Also ...

Cryptography
Location: X30 Y11

Cryptography should be put back an era and then placed closer to Writing. Unless it gets another tech req. As it is now you can jump too far. This seems like a poorly planed tech layout.

Alternatively Cryptography could be moved forward and require Alphabet instead of Writing.

 

[Thunderbrd]

From now on, when we adjust the x grid of the unlocking tech for a unit or building, the unit or building cost should be updated.
The base cost by x grid is found on this chart: (first # is the x grid # and the second # is the associated cost)
Modder's Documentation
And different unit lines have differing % modifications to the base cost. Building lines haven't been so fully reviewed as to be given flat % modifiers by the building line itself but at some point we should evaluate all buildings in the game to align with this chart and modified by a % modifier for the line or category the building falls into. Not all unit lines have been evaluated yet either, but healers have, and there is a healer unit accessed at Veterinary Medicine, which is why I bring this up now.

The expanding unit review link in my sig line has a page that covers cost assignments for units by x-grid of the tech that unlocks them. (the iCost 'page' tab)
According to that chart (here) units that primarily heal animals such as the UNIT_VET that is unlocked at TECH_VETERIANARY_MEDICINE (as of last adjustment was at x31) get a -25% modifier to the base cost. Thus, when adjusting the tech to grid x 30, the new cost would be base of 205 according to the base cost chart -25%. 25% of 205 is roughly 51. 205-51= 154. Might as well adjust the unit's cost to be 155 (round to the nearest 5 or 10 usually). A bit cheaper than the 175 that it's currently at by being at x31 instead, huh?

TBH, one of the biggest current flaws in the mod is that buildings and units have not universally been updated to this cost method yet. Its been wreaking havoc on poor Joseph as there are some spots where there are dramatically 'off' cost assessments between the old and new base curve charts.

 

[pepper2000]

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll update the costs of all units and buildings appropriate when I make the adjustments. Probably tomorrow.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll update the costs of all units and buildings appropriate when I make the adjustments. Probably tomorrow.

We really need to define unit and building lines and their individual % modifiers for this to work properly. This is one of the highest v38 cycle priorities imo.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have been really looking for the posts about it but when did the tech colors turn from rainbow to random colors? I understand if its hard to see blue on blue but i think we could make it more aesthetically pleasing. Such as ...

A. Using a more monochromatic type of rainbow

Prehistoric (Dark Green)
Ancient (Dark Yellow / Gold)
Classical (Dark Orange / Brown)
Medieval (Dark Red)
Renaissance (Salmon Red)
Industrial (Magenta)
Modern (Violet)
Transhuman (Dark Purple)
Galactic (Black)
Future (Dark Gray) - Note this is only 1 tech

B. Using an alternating pattern with the most contrast from blue and the previous era.

Prehistoric (Silver)
Ancient (Black)
Classical
Medieval
Renaissance
Industrial
Modern
Transhuman
Galactic
Future

Note Magenta could be used instead of Silver but it looks kinda bad.

C. Change the learned techs to Black and the researching techs to Silver and go back to the old rainbow.

Prehistoric (Red)
Ancient (Orange)
Classical (Dark Yellow)
Medieval (Green)
Renaissance (Teal)
Industrial (Blue)
Modern (Indigo)
Transhuman (Purple)
Galactic (Magenta)
Future (Pink)

I personally lie the last one if possible.

 

[Praetyre]

My impression was that the existing era colours are based on the electromagnetic spectrum, but I have no serious objections to changing that around (though I seem to recall hearing at least part of it is hardcoded).

 

[Hydromancerx]

I looked through a bunch of other mods and they mostly use the same color thing. But it looks like "History of the Three Kingdoms" mod uses some sort of brown / khaki instead of green / teal for the researched and researching.

EDIT: Oh wait even that is changed in C2C now. Researched is Yellow and researching is Blue

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so i have been looking closer at the tech tree and I am very frustrated with some of the changes. Such as Candle Making and Mummification becoming dead end techs. back when working on the techs we reduced redundant techs. which meant things like if Tech A + B = C and another tech had A + C then all you needed was C and not A too. So undoing tech C also undo's tech A. This can be a whole domino effect where techs you are suppose to require you do not anymore.

This is a HUGE headache! Now i have to track down all the changes since I was last here to see if any redundant techs are no longer redundant.