Tech Tree Revisions

[<Nexus>]

Cutting Sacrifice is okay, it makes sense, but please don't move Ritualism. It fits exactly where it is.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Looks more than a wish list to me anyway. Changes look good to me Vokarya. Are you still thinking to postpone them?

 

[Vokarya]

Looks more than a wish list to me anyway. Changes look good to me Vokarya. Are you still thinking to postpone them?

This is something I want to do later. I've been trying to do some reskin work on the models that I want to use for Colonist and Pioneer. The African and Indian styles have distinct Settler models, so I want those two styles to get the upgrades as well. I want my next build to have a graphics upgrade with distinct Colonist/Pioneer models and African executives for the new corporations (we have executives for the original 7 corps but not the new ones, so it creates a graphics disconnect). But I can't find an easy way to do this, so it might take a while.

 

[<Nexus>]

If we really want to cut techs you should consider Monotheism as it is a totally useless tech. It has no real content. Founding Judaism is good, but only for the first civ. From Massada also only the first civ will usually benefit. Than it obsoletes 2 useful buildings. So if you are 2nd or later, Monotheism is not an achievement but a punishment
Just merge it with Scriptures.

Same goes for Polytheism. Very poor concept with little content that could be moved to other techs.

 

[Rezca]

Since those are both native techs and not mod-added ones, I'd think other content should be moved to them instead of the other way around if possible buuuut... Whatever ends up working best for Vokarya.

Not sure, but how many BTS techs been removed so far? I think Recycling was one wasn't it?

 

[<Nexus>]

Those were poor concept in BtS too
"BtS content" is not equal with "good content".

Many other BtS stuff were already removed from the mod, like Trade Routes and there were a complete civic system overhaul.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying to remove Mono and Poly.
I'm saying remove Mono and Poly rather than others.

 

[Rezca]

Those were poor concept in BtS too
"BtS content" is not equal with "good content".

Many other BtS stuff were already removed from the mod, like Trade Routes and there were a complete civic system overhaul.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying to remove Mono and Poly.
I'm saying remove Mono and Poly rather than others.

'Poor concepts' in your opinion of course. I only brought that bit up since it seemed like overall we've been trying to keep vanilla CivIV (Base/Warlord/BTS) techs where possible.


I'd only say remove/merge them if Vokarya feels it'd be beneficial. Whether it is or isn't beneficial to though, I'm undecided.

 

[<Nexus>]

'Poor concepts' in your opinion of course. I only brought that bit up since it seemed like overall we've been trying to keep vanilla CivIV (Base/Warlord/BTS) techs where possible.

In my opinion of course
In my opinion those 2 techs were acceptable in base Civ4 (also in Age of Empires I). But when I compare BtS with AND2... I feel AND2 is far more polished and realistic.

I'd only say remove/merge them if Vokarya feels it'd be beneficial. Whether it is or isn't beneficial to though, I'm undecided.

I'd be surprised if he could be convinced to remove either.
But I'm also sure he would never introduce them if they were newly supposed ideas

But it's no biggie, I can live with it or remove them in Chronicles...

 

[Rezca]

Looking at Polythesim it is pretty limited, and I never did like Shrine obsoleting at Monotheism. I always edited it to obsolete at later dates.

Removing them in your own mod-mod would probably be the simplest solution if they're that negative in your eyes

I'm not losing any sleep over them being removed though, but it'd be nice to see them be reinforced a touch should they remain.
*EDIT* One thing that does come to mind though, is where their respective religions be reassigned to should one or both be removed?

 

[<Nexus>]

Looking at Polythesim it is pretty limited, and I never did like Shrine obsoleting at Monotheism. I always edited it to obsolete at later dates.

Same here.

Removing them in your own mod-mod would probably be the simplest solution if they're that negative in your eyes

Yes, it's on my to do list
Otherwise... I'm not complaining (even though I may sound so).
It's just... Free Speech civic on the forums

I'm not losing any sleep over them being removed though, but it'd be nice to see them be reinforced a touch should they remain.

If I had any ideas to do I had suggested them already but those are very narrow in concept.

*EDIT* One thing that does come to mind though, is where their respective religions be reassigned to should one or both be removed?

Religions were moved away from them long ago with a good reason.

 

[Rezca]

Religions were moved away from them long ago with a good reason.

Uhhh, but Kemetism and Judaism are still attached to them? Or am I reading your comment wrong

 

[<Nexus>]

Uhhh, but Kemetism and Judaism are still attached to them? Or am I reading your comment wrong

Sorry
Polytheism had Hinduism originally. I was referring to that.

 

[Vokarya]

Since those are both native techs and not mod-added ones, I'd think other content should be moved to them instead of the other way around if possible buuuut... Whatever ends up working best for Vokarya.

Not sure, but how many BTS techs been removed so far? I think Recycling was one wasn't it?

I don't think we've removed any tech that originally comes from BTS. (We have revamped the Civics, Trade Routes, and renaming the original Colosseum as Arena.) Ecology is the original Civ4 tech. Recycling is a tech in Civ2 and Civ3. I suspect it was added to RoM because it was in Civ3. I've been noticing some influences from earlier Civ games and Call to Power a little as I'm looking through them to find any ideas that might be worth borrowing.

 

[Vokarya]

I have put together a formal proposal for what I would like to do with the Ancient Era. Other than removing Sacrifice, I think there are three problems that need to be addressed.

1. Chariotry does not make for a good tech. I don't really like the mounted combat techs (Chariotry, Stirrup, Armored Cavalry). They run out of tricks after one or two units plus maybe an XP-provider for mounted units. Techs that use animals for combat and other purposes, like Horseback Riding, Horse Breeding, and Chivalry are much better. Cavalry Tactics has a special necessity because it forces a gap between Matchlock and Flintlock.
2. Bronze Working comes far too late. The Ancient Era is also known as the Bronze Age, but Bronze Working appears in the very last column of the Ancient Era. The problem is the length of the Stone Tools-The Wheel-Pottery-Metal Casting-Bronze Working chain. Bronze Working should not require MC. In BTS, it is actually the other way around.
3. Warfare sticks out especially late. Warfare is two full levels past Writing, which is the easiest jumping off point into the Classical Era (usually with Alphabet, possibly with Mathematics if you went through Trade). I don't like "outliers" like this, and I've managed to remove almost all of them except for a few in the Ancient Era (currently Naval Warfare, Scriptures, Bronze Working and Warfare) plus Algebra and Compass in the Medieval Era (Education is the jumping-off point here) and Archeology and Democracy in the Renaissance.

So this is what I would like to do:

• Chariotry and Sacrifice are removed.
• Horseback Riding requires only Animal Husbandry.
• Bronze Working requires Mining + Woodworking.
• Metal Casting requires Bronze Working + Pottery. This is the same requirements as BTS, but Metal Casting is still Ancient Era.
• Warfare requires Archery and either Bronze Working or Horseback Riding. This brings it back a couple of levels.
• Naval Warfare requires Ship Building and Warfare.
• Glass Blowing requires Metal Casting.
• Iron Working requires Metal Casting and Monarchy.

Here is a map of what it will look like.


I also rearranged the techs on the F6 screen a little. When I added Stone Tools to the prerequisites for The Wheel, I should have moved up Pottery/Metal Casting/Bronze Working/Warfare, but that would have been very messy and left a column with only one tech (Warfare). After rearrangement, the techs are now in their proper columns and costed appropriately. I still had to split Ancient-3 across columns 3 and 4 because it was 10 techs and would have been a solid wall. The expensive techs in column 4 are the very valuable ones (Bronze Working, Masonry, Priesthood, Trade) and Polytheism is there to make it more expensive to head straight for Kemetism.

There is also some trick-rearrangement going on.

• Ceremonial Altar/Sacrificial Altar stays with Priesthood.
• Chichen Itza moves to Code of Laws.
• Chariot requires Animal Husbandry AND The Wheel AND Warfare.
• Elephant Rider requires Horseback Riding AND Warfare. I don't want this showing up before players have a chance to get Archers/Spearmen in place.
• Stable requires Horseback Riding.
• Copper reveal and Spearman are moved to Bronze Working.
• Axeman and Colossus are moved to Metal Casting.
• Sun Tzu's Art of War is moved to Iron Working. Warfare has a very high trick count and I don't want it to get too high.
• Great General is moved to Aristocracy. Warfare is now a bit too early for a free Great Person.

 

[<Nexus>]

It's good

I think that the Ancient era is really in a need of one more military tech - other than Archery and Warfare. Warfare is still a bit overloaded.

 

[Arakhor]

Those seems reasonable so far.

 

[Vokarya]

It's good

I think that the Ancient era is really in a need of one more military tech - other than Archery and Warfare. Warfare is still a bit overloaded.

Masonry and Trade are also pretty overloaded. If we didn't have so many religious techs, it might be possible to add some more, but the only cut I can still even envision, without actually carrying out, is to put Ceremonial Burial in Ritualism's place and move Ritualism up to the Classical Era. If we had a different religion-founding system, we probably wouldn't need any of Poly/Dual/Mono, but I think we need them the way they are for now.

I would also like Stargazing (early astronomy) and a tech to represent the development of formal government and transitioning away from chiefdoms (I noticed Civ6 has an Early Empire civic-tech, but I think that sounds too clunky to be good). But I don't want the Ancient Era to get bloated.

 

[Arakhor]

I like the idea of Stargazing, but maybe you could shift Metal Casting to the first tier of Classical? I'm happy to have the Ancient Era as bigger than the Classical, as I said, but I do like your ideas so far.

 

[Vokarya]

I like the idea of Stargazing, but maybe you could shift Metal Casting to the first tier of Classical? I'm happy to have the Ancient Era as bigger than the Classical, as I said, but I do like your ideas so far.

I thought about that, but moving Metal Casting to the Classical has three problems of its own.

1. Metal Casting's (proposed) prerequisites are Bronze Working and Pottery. Both of these are level 3. This would make MC a backdoor into the Classical Era unless we add another prerequisite. Sculpture is about the only thing that seems to fit.
2. Axeman would be moved up to the Classical Era or given to another tech. I don't want Axemen too early, and I think my proposed placement for Bronze Working is too early for that. Warfare is also overburdened and I can't think of another good military tech.
3. Forge would also be moved up. I don't mind moving up the production bonus, but Forge is the one Engineer slot allocated to the Ancient Era. We'd probably have to shift Engineers from the Armourer line to the Carpenter line to balance it out.

#1 is the most difficult problem. #2 is a question of how important Axemen are; I'd like to see early war a bit more, but I can never seem to start wars until I have Light Swordsmen and Catapults. #3 is a simple rearrangement.

 

[Arakhor]

I'm not knowledgeable about metallurgy at all, but I do recall that sculpture and metal-casting often go hand in hand, with metal frames or "skeletons" for some particularly big statues. Of course, it does depend on what "metal casting" actually means in-game, as copper-working was going on even before the Bronze Age (obviously).