Tech Tree Revisions

Sorry, I thought you wanted a 5th myth too :crazyeye::crazyeye:

I was considering it, not stating it as a done deal. I might just bury a couple of possible icons in the atlas and leave it for later. We need icons in the FPK files for Stargazing tech (unless I can find one on Final Frontier), Myth of the Sky, Mechanics tech (Siegecraft is getting the Siege Warfare icon), Scriptures with Judaism unfounded, Cosmopolitan civic, Shadow War civic, and Hive civic. So that means repacking the FPK files.
 
Here's the current version of my wish list. I feel like I am just cutting and adjusting around the edges. There's nothing major that I want to do, and at this point nothing I feel like we have to do.

  1. Revamp the Caste System tech. Caste System is probably the weakest remaining tech in the Ancient Era. The other techs that I considered weak have been either purged (Chariotry, Sacrifice), strengthened (The Wheel, Mythology, Ethics), or are too fundamental (Ritualism, Archery) to get rid of. Caste System is very narrow, but I think the real concept here is the establishment of a formal status system. The other thing that I can see worked into the Tech Tree is a tech representing the establishment of a real state, which would vacuum up Despotism, Caste, and Warrior Caste and lead easily into Warfare and Writing.
  2. Delete one tech from the Classical Era. This is only to satisfy my like for round numbers. The Classical Era is currently at 31 techs with the additions of Metal Casting, Naval Warfare, and Scriptures and the removal of Machinery to the Medieval Era. Glass Blowing is probably the weakest tech remaining here. It has only 2 tricks (Glasssmith, Ishtar Gate) and I would have a hard time seeing how to give it any more tricks, plus it isn't required for any other tech until Alchemy.
  3. Add two techs to the Medieval Era. Adding Siegecraft has brought the Medieval Era up to 30 techs. This is where I want it to be. The reason to add new techs would be to allow merging two of the weaker techs while maintaining the 30-tech count: Armored Cavalry (merged into Chivalry) and Perspective (merged into Oil Painting, and it's closer to the Renaissance.) I am considering something along the lines of Charters or City Rights that would bleed a little bit more off of Civil Service (the Build Hamlet/evolve to Village).
  4. Find something to replace Cavalry Tactics between Matchlock and Flintlock. Cavalry Tactics has continued to survive only because I need it as a tech to force some space between Matchlock and Flintlock. Otherwise, I would have weeded it a long time ago. I'd love to have a different tech in that place, but I don't think Leadership, Metallurgy, or Chemistry are appropriate. Leadership needs to be close to where the Gunpowder units appear, Metallurgy is also early Renaissance, and Chemistry would force Flintlock too close to Rifling. Metallurgy has a glimmer of potential.
  5. Add one tech to the late Modern Era. What I want to do here is kick Nanotechnology out of the Modern Era and leave the concept to the Transhuman Era where I think it becomes mature enough for large-scale use. I feel like there is room for a late Modern Era economic tech between Conglomerates and Megacorporations, but I can't think of what to call it (it would certainly be Globalization if that name wasn't already in use, but I feel it is very important to have whatever tech enables the United Nations to show up early in the Modern Era, right after Communism/Fascism/Fission and before Computers) and I can't think of what to give it other than World Trade Center. Anything else in the Modern Era would probably work as long as it wasn't aerospace or computers. We have enough tech in those areas right now.

For the moment, I think 1 is plausible, 2 is the most likely, 3 is a bit of a long shot, I probably should have come up with something for 4 by now, and 5 is not great but I don't think is truly impossible.
 
I was considering it, not stating it as a done deal. I might just bury a couple of possible icons in the atlas and leave it for later. We need icons in the FPK files for Stargazing tech (unless I can find one on Final Frontier), Myth of the Sky, Mechanics tech (Siegecraft is getting the Siege Warfare icon), Scriptures with Judaism unfounded, Cosmopolitan civic, Shadow War civic, and Hive civic. So that means repacking the FPK files.

Don't you like my Hive civic icon? :confused:
 
Now that silk is a plantation resource, should the "enables" tech now be calendar not trade. Currently you get access to silk with weaving and trade if you found a city on the tile.
 
I keep coming back to the Medieval Era because I think it's almost perfect if I could just fix a couple of things. Specifically, I really want to get rid of Armored Cavalry and Perspective and possibly do something with Invention and Usury. Armored Cavalry is just too narrow to be a good tech. It would be much better combined with Chivalry. Chivalry is absolutely solid. Perspective is a Renaissance concept that somehow found itself in the Medieval. (I suspect that it is there because the Sistine Chapel is Medieval in BTS. All of the religious wonders - Apostolic Palace, University of Sankore, Spiral Minaret, Sistine Chapel - are Medieval in BTS. I think there is some space to play with this in AND.) Invention is a really broad topic and hard to pin down; I think it is in as a throwback to Civ3, but most Invention techs in other Civ games unlock Leonardo's Workshop, which would look very wrong outside the Renaissance. Usury seems to overlap a lot with Banking. It's the lowest on my priority list.

I have come up with two ideas for reshuffles that would allow removing ACav/Perspective without losing the magic number 30 of Medieval techs.

1. Moving Music from the Classical Era to the Medieval Era.
Music is one of those concepts that is so broad that it is difficult to tie it to a specific point. As a tech, Music could fit just about anywhere in the early eras. Music has only three tricks: the Build Culture process, the Great Artist, and the Sagas. Build Culture can really fit anywhere between the beginning of the Classical Era, where Build Wealth and Build Research are available, and the end of the Medieval, which is when Build Espionage is available. The first free Great Person of each type generally comes in the Medieval-Renaissance Eras. The exceptions are the Great General at Aristocracy (late Great Generals aren't worth very much), the Great Diplomat at Politics (there aren't as many sources of GDip points as other GP types), and the Great Artist at Music. It wouldn't hurt to have the Artist a bit later.

The Sagas have always been iffy in placement to me. They are Asatru's Wonder, and Asatru is not founded until Rudder in the Medieval Era. It is theoretically possible that Asatru could spread from its founder to another civilization with Music but not Rudder, but I don't think that is very likely. I would be much more comfortable if Rudder and Music were in the same column or at least the same era.

The big drawback that I can see is that Music forces a gap between Philosophy and Theology. I would probably put Music after Theology but there isn't any better place for it to go. All Music needs to be is after Drama and before Patronage and Paper. I have a feeling if you beeline Theology after Philosophy, you have a long stretch without any advancement. I'm willing to experiment with it, but I'm not quite convinced this is a completely good thing to do.

2. Moving Divine Right from the Renaissance Era to the Medieval Era.
Divine Right is a Medieval tech in BTS. In AND, it's Renaissance because I was basing off of Jean Bodin (1530-1596). The divine right of kings was a concept long before it was defined. The Investiture Controversy happened in the 11th-12th centuries, and the Mandate of Heaven in China was formulated much earlier, all the way to 1000 BCE.

Divine Right's current prerequisites are Chivalry + Holy War + Papacy + Political Philosophy. It would be very easy to switch Divine Right and Political Philosophy. Divine Right would fit into the last row of the Medieval along with Algebra and Compass.
Divine Right's tricks are a +1 Espionage point from Watchtower and three World Wonders: Spiral Minaret, Palace of Potala, and Temple of Heaven. Going by historical dates, Spiral Minaret is medieval (851), while Temple of Heaven (16th century) and Palace of Potala (1645) fit into the Renaissance. One of these could be swapped off to Political Philosophy/Jurisprudence and Divine Right could take Islam from Education. Education is one of the three biggest choke points in the tree (along with Steam Power and Advanced Computers) and so reducing it a little wouldn't go amiss.

Moving Divine Right to the Medieval leads to some changes in the tree. Divine Right currently leads to Mercantilism, Scientific Method, and Social Contract. Social Contract is kept in place by Jurisprudence. Mercantilism has Navigation as its other prerequisite. We could exchange DR for Political Philosophy and drop Mercantilism back by a column. Mercantilism is not necessary for any tech until Economics, and Economics has the Liberalism chain to complete first. Scientific Method would fall back a column, as all of its other prerequisites (Anatomy, Astronomy, Clockworks, and Printing Press) are in the first two columns of the Renaissance.

Moving Scientific Method does cause a small shakeup of the center tree. Scientific Method currently holds in place Chemistry, Physics, Acoustics, and Rifling. Pulling back Chemistry, Physics, and Acoustics wouldn't be bad, but Rifling would be too close to Flintlock. I would probably put Rifling on the other side of Replaceable Parts (where it is in BTS). The next upgrade isn't until Infantry at Automatic Weapons.

This move is much more solid than moving Music. I can't see too many problems with it.
 
The second one definitely sounds better.
 
The second one definitely sounds better.

I agree with Arakhor. The only thing that bothers me is that Islam might come too late: I can't check the tech tree right now but I already feel Islam comes a bit too late; I would avoid pushing it forward.
 
I agree with Arakhor. The only thing that bothers me is that Islam might come too late: I can't check the tech tree right now but I already feel Islam comes a bit too late; I would avoid pushing it forward.

On one level, I agree with you. Islam is currently available at Education, which is nearly the last column of the Medieval Era except for the outlier techs of Algebra and Compass. If we go by the historical timeline, Christianity should be a late Classical religion and Islam early Medieval. Holy War would be a perfect place for Islam if it wasn't so close to Theology. We can't really move Christianity as Theology is skating very close to the two-trick minimum. It has Christianity, Hagia Sophia, and Seminary, but Seminary counts only in the sense of not being absolutely impossible to build as you CAN build it if you scored Shwedagon Paya and switched to State Church or Free Church. Otherwise, Papacy is the required tech as it allows State Church.

The concentration of religions in the Classical Era is the big issue with trying to space out which techs can found religions. The only thing I can think of to alleviate this is a mandatory variation on Limited Religions that says a civilization that founds a religion (not necessarily captures one) can't found another until that civilization reaches a new era. So a civilization could get one of Kemetism/Zoroastrianism, then one of the Classical religions, then one of the Medieval choices, then maybe found one more by beelining to the Renaissance and then dropping back to pick up an unfounded Medieval. But that would be a long shot.

Something else I thought of would be to give Shinto to Divine Right and leave Islam where it is. Civil Service is one of the greedy techs with 8 tricks. I'd love to move a couple. This is why I considered the Charters tech (to spin off the build Hamlet/upgrade to Town) and haven't really given up on it.
 
Variation on Limited Religions: I like the idea but don't make it mandatory, please.

I like it too but we definitely already have too many options, so I'm not going to add this one.
 
On one level, I agree with you. Islam is currently available at Education, which is nearly the last column of the Medieval Era except for the outlier techs of Algebra and Compass. If we go by the historical timeline, Christianity should be a late Classical religion and Islam early Medieval. Holy War would be a perfect place for Islam if it wasn't so close to Theology. We can't really move Christianity as Theology is skating very close to the two-trick minimum. It has Christianity, Hagia Sophia, and Seminary, but Seminary counts only in the sense of not being absolutely impossible to build as you CAN build it if you scored Shwedagon Paya and switched to State Church or Free Church. Otherwise, Papacy is the required tech as it allows State Church.

The concentration of religions in the Classical Era is the big issue with trying to space out which techs can found religions. The only thing I can think of to alleviate this is a mandatory variation on Limited Religions that says a civilization that founds a religion (not necessarily captures one) can't found another until that civilization reaches a new era. So a civilization could get one of Kemetism/Zoroastrianism, then one of the Classical religions, then one of the Medieval choices, then maybe found one more by beelining to the Renaissance and then dropping back to pick up an unfounded Medieval. But that would be a long shot.

Something else I thought of would be to give Shinto to Divine Right and leave Islam where it is. Civil Service is one of the greedy techs with 8 tricks. I'd love to move a couple. This is why I considered the Charters tech (to spin off the build Hamlet/upgrade to Town) and haven't really given up on it.

I like the idea of moving Shinto do Divine Right.
 
I like it too but we definitely already have too many options, so I'm not going to add this one.

It was one of the few things I could think of to prevent players from founding multiple religions too closely together while still keeping the current religion setup.

Another somewhat-complex option would be to shuffle the stages of religion founding. This is an idea I picked up from Sullla's website, and Civ6 is apparently doing something similar. Instead of founding a religion automatically on discovering a technology, the technology would instead unlock the religion's Shrine as a Wonder, and building the Shrine -- either the hard way, rushing with a Great Engineer, or instantly with a Great Prophet -- would actually found the religion, in the same way that Corporate Headquarters found a Corporation.
 
It was one of the few things I could think of to prevent players from founding multiple religions too closely together while still keeping the current religion setup.

Another somewhat-complex option would be to shuffle the stages of religion founding. This is an idea I picked up from Sullla's website, and Civ6 is apparently doing something similar. Instead of founding a religion automatically on discovering a technology, the technology would instead unlock the religion's Shrine as a Wonder, and building the Shrine -- either the hard way, rushing with a Great Engineer, or instantly with a Great Prophet -- would actually found the religion, in the same way that Corporate Headquarters found a Corporation.

Fund it. Excellent idea, and it should be implemented ASAP.

An addition to that is to make it so a city can only have one shrine, like how it can have only one myth.
 
Charters and Voyages

These are two ideas I am kicking around as possible Medieval techs. My first aim is to find something to replace Armored Cavalry as the 30th Medieval tech. Beyond that, I'm not completely sure what I want. I could make a fairly good case for moving any of Banking, Invention, or Optics to the Renaissance Era. This is certainly not a done deal.

Charters is the more solid of the two ideas. It is a mid-Medieval tech that basically represents a spinoff of Civil Service. It would require Civil Service + Guilds, leading to Banking and replacing Civil Service as an OR choice for Paper. Its tricks would be Build Hamlet/Upgrade Village (taken from Civil Service) and Hanseatic League (substituting for Guilds).

Voyages is a working name. I do not have an ideal name for this as a tech. The concept is increasing international trade and maybe some exploration. It would require Guilds and either Civil Service or Usury (Usury requires Civil Service) and as an OR prerequisite, Holy War or Rudder. It would lead to Cartography and Compass. Its tricks would be Caravan (taken from Crop Rotation), Hanseatic League (taken from Rudder), and Marco Polo's Embassy.
 
Fund it. Excellent idea, and it should be implemented ASAP.

An addition to that is to make it so a city can only have one shrine, like how it can have only one myth.

I couldn't do it alone. We would need a new XML tag, <FoundsReligion>, by analogy to <FoundsCorporation>, and the AI would have to made aware of its implementation.

There is an existing tag <bNoHolyCity> that was brought over from C2C. I haven't tested it, but it is supposed to prevent a building from being built in a Holy City. (It was intended for a Wonder that would serve as a second Shrine of your state religion.) So that would solve the second problem.
 
I couldn't do it alone. We would need a new XML tag, <FoundsReligion>, by analogy to <FoundsCorporation>, and the AI would have to made aware of its implementation.

There is an existing tag <bNoHolyCity> that was brought over from C2C. I haven't tested it, but it is supposed to prevent a building from being built in a Holy City. (It was intended for a Wonder that would serve as a second Shrine of your state religion.) So that would solve the second problem.

Looks a bit complex to me. Not the part about new tags of course, and probably <bNoHolyCity> is working as intended. But discovering a tech that gives you access to a Shrine which must be built in order to found a religion looks a bit too much if AI must be made aware of it. Years ago I imported Divine Prophets from C2C, maybe we could revive that part of the code. Discovering a tech grants a Great Prophet that can be used to found a religion. This would have the same effect as unlocking the Shrine. The only problem might be that in the same way you can build multiple wonders to found more religions, you could also use multiple great prophets to do it. Another problem I see with the shrine/wonder idea is that it would delay religions founding (and they're mostly already late), while a GP would cause no delay (except for player's decision). The problem with the GP idea is that we should find a way to prevent founding 2 or more religions too often, which was the original issue. Maybe I could set a timer so that a civ can't found 2 religions with Great Prophets if X turns haven't passed and you're already running a state religion. Any other idea?
 
Maybe founding religions with GPs would be like golden ages - 1 for the first, 2 for the second, etc.
 
Maybe founding religions with GPs would be like golden ages - 1 for the first, 2 for the second, etc.

Yeah, I thought about that too. It could be a good idea but maybe some players might find it too restrictive. Effectively, it would be nearly impossible to found more than 2 religions. It sounds very good to me, but what do others think about it? Vokarya? Others?
 
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