Tech Tree Revisions

[Vokarya]

Another question.

Is there room for Colonialism as a Renaissance Era tech, or is it too close to Mercantilism?

I'm looking for some new Renaissance tech ideas because we're getting rid of two current techs:

• Divine Right is moving to the Medieval Era.
• Naval Cannon is also on its way out. It's a concept without very much room to grow, and I don't very much like narrow military techs. Moving the ships that are currently there up to Naval Tactics would open up some room between the early Renaissance ships (Caravel/Fluyt/Brigantine) and their immediate upgrades (Sloop/Galleon/Frigate). Flintlock is holding Naval Tactics in place, so removing Naval Cannon won't affect the placement of any other tech.
  
• (Oil Painting is also going away, but Perspective is moving up from the Medieval Era to replace it.)

So I'm looking for ideas to keep the Renaissance Era at 35 techs and I think Colonialism has some potential.

I think appropriate requirements would be Leadership and Navigation or Mercantilism (Mercantilism requires Navigation) depending on which side of Mercantilism we want Colonialism to be on. The two concepts coexist in the mid-Renaissance. For tricks, Colonialism could take the Colonist from Navigation, the East India Company and Interventionism civic from Mercantilism, and possibly the Galleon if Colonialism is after Mercantilism.

 

[<Nexus>]

@ZN Way too complex for me and to tell the truth I don't see any real reason why we should change current method
I definitely don't want regions to be founded later than they currently are

Me either! That was the main point of my proposal: If religions need only an ancient tech (Mythology) or an early-classical tech (Scriptures) they will be founded EARLIER throughout the whole world. Who is first to discover a tech is not that important than the place where you are. Obviously you cannot be everywhere so founding more religions is not that easy the way I proposed.

 

[<Nexus>]

I think appropriate requirements would be Leadership and Navigation or Mercantilism (Mercantilism requires Navigation) depending on which side of Mercantilism we want Colonialism to be on. The two concepts coexist in the mid-Renaissance. For tricks, Colonialism could take the Colonist from Navigation, the East India Company and Interventionism civic from Mercantilism, and possibly the Galleon if Colonialism is after Mercantilism.

Sounds okay.
If they are so close why don't you put them into the same column? If there is enough room, of course.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

If you don't like the idea, then we can drop it. I thought shifting religion founding to the Shrines was a good idea because it made Holy City placement a strategic decision rather than random, it didn't seem that far removed from a mechanic we already had (founding corporations with HQ buildings), and it made founding religions not 100% dependent on the single factor of being first to the founding tech. But if you see problems with it that I didn't, I can accept that.

I'm just not 100% convinced, I'm not saying I want to discard the idea at all. I'll have a look at the code but the main problem is AFAIK exactly the connection between techs and founding a religion. I recall that part being tricky when I was trying to stop barbarians from founding religions. Moving the foundation from techs to buildings might be harder than it looks. I'll make some test anyway and I'll let you know.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Another question.

Is there room for Colonialism as a Renaissance Era tech, or is it too close to Mercantilism?

I'm looking for some new Renaissance tech ideas because we're getting rid of two current techs:

• Divine Right is moving to the Medieval Era.
• Naval Cannon is also on its way out. It's a concept without very much room to grow, and I don't very much like narrow military techs. Moving the ships that are currently there up to Naval Tactics would open up some room between the early Renaissance ships (Caravel/Fluyt/Brigantine) and their immediate upgrades (Sloop/Galleon/Frigate). Flintlock is holding Naval Tactics in place, so removing Naval Cannon won't affect the placement of any other tech.
  
• (Oil Painting is also going away, but Perspective is moving up from the Medieval Era to replace it.)

So I'm looking for ideas to keep the Renaissance Era at 35 techs and I think Colonialism has some potential.

I think appropriate requirements would be Leadership and Navigation or Mercantilism (Mercantilism requires Navigation) depending on which side of Mercantilism we want Colonialism to be on. The two concepts coexist in the mid-Renaissance. For tricks, Colonialism could take the Colonist from Navigation, the East India Company and Interventionism civic from Mercantilism, and possibly the Galleon if Colonialism is after Mercantilism.

I like it and I slightly prefer Colonialism after Mercantilism but it's up to you.

 

[Arakhor]

If you don't like the idea, then we can drop it. I thought shifting religion founding to the Shrines was a good idea because it made Holy City placement a strategic decision rather than random, it didn't seem that far removed from a mechanic we already had (founding corporations with HQ buildings), and it made founding religions not 100% dependent on the single factor of being first to the founding tech. But if you see problems with it that I didn't, I can accept that.

I think that it's certainly an interesting idea and it would be a shame to drop it.

 

[Vokarya]

I went back and looked up approximate timeline points for Colonialism and Mercantilism. Colonialism, at least for the Spanish in the Americas, is going by the mid-1500's. Mercantilism doesn't get established until the mid-1600's. So I think Colonialism should come first, followed immediately by Mercantilism. I want a link between the two and so I will have Colonialism require Leadership + Navigation + Political Philosophy, which gives Leadership and Political Philosophy each an extra exit point, and then Mercantilism is pushed up to the next column and requires only Colonialism.

On the trick placement side, I think it would be best to give the Galleon to Mercantilism. This will place it fairly halfway between Fluyt (right now, at Astronomy + Gunpowder) and Steamer (Steam Engine).

 

[<Nexus>]

Maybe I'm the only one but I really don't like the tech: Usury. It neither sounds like a "technology" nor something medieval exclusive.
I know we don't want to ax it but how about renaming it into Toll? It already has Toll House as one of its tricks.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, it was an historical concept. The Catholics considered it a sin, so it was left to the Jews to do, and the flow of money and debt is certainly an advancement on before.

 

[<Nexus>]

Well, it was an historical concept. The Catholics considered it a sin, so it was left to the Jews to do, and the flow of money and debt is certainly an advancement on before.

True, it was historical, but not medieval:

Thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent upon usury:
Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury.

It's a concept known known from ancient times.

But it's definitely not a tech.

 

[Vokarya]

I have never liked Usury very much either, but there have been other things that I have wanted to remove more and I don't want the Medieval Era dropping below 30 techs. I don't want to just rename Usury (tolls are equally ancient) and I'd like to cut the tech completely if we could find one more medieval tech. Charters is the next medieval tech I'm going to add, but I'm using it to cut Armored Cavalry, which is really narrow and would be so much better merged with Chivalry. Charters is in a good position (mid-Medieval) to pick up anything that may be lost by losing Usury.

 

[rtt4a]

I think that it's certainly an interesting idea and it would be a shame to drop it.

Have to say that I dont like this idea because shrines wont create religions, well organized and mature religions create shrines. I also dont think that Holy City placement should be just a strategic decision rather than random, little randomnes sounds only fair with religions There is also already holy city relocation option and possibility to purge religion out of city even when its holy city right?

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Holy city relocation, doesn't work, Inquisitions do work, didn't for a while for me, suddenly fixed in one svn?? have no idea why or when.

Relocation of a holy city, with Inquisition, ie to another civ that has at least 2 cities with the religion. Problem might be that they AREN'T running the religion as the state religion.

Personally, I'd like the migration of the holy city to the Civ, with the most cities of that religion, AND they are running that religion as the state religion.

Examples:

1) Civ B has 30 cities, 25 of which have Islam in them, but are running Buddhism as state religion, Civ A with Islam holy city only has 10 cities, and is running as state religion, they would never lose holy city.
2) Civ A has holy city of Christianity, they are running Hinduism as State religion, has 25 cities with both religions. Civ B has 5 cities with Christianity and is running as state religion, Holy city wouldn't migrate to Civ B, as lessor worshipers of relgion.
3) Civ A has 10 cities, with Taoism as religion, running Zoroastrianism as state religion. Civ B has 15 Cities with Taoism, running no state religion, Holy city still won't migrate.
4) Civ A has 10 Cities, with Shinto, 15 with Confucianism, running Confucianism as state religion. Civ B has 40 Cities, 25 with Shinto, 20 with Confucianism, runs Shinto as state religion. Holy city would NOW migrate to Civ B, as is state religion, and has most worshipers of said religion.

As I understand it, Realism invicitus has this function, or a similar one to what I've proposed. Would need a threshold amount to breach before change could happen, say 25% of population/cities.???

 

[<Nexus>]

I have never liked Usury very much either, but there have been other things that I have wanted to remove more and I don't want the Medieval Era dropping below 30 techs. I don't want to just rename Usury (tolls are equally ancient) and I'd like to cut the tech completely if we could find one more medieval tech. Charters is the next medieval tech I'm going to add, but I'm using it to cut Armored Cavalry, which is really narrow and would be so much better merged with Chivalry. Charters is in a good position (mid-Medieval) to pick up anything that may be lost by losing Usury.

Ohh, if you're willing to cut it entirely, than it's much better

 

[Vokarya]

There are only a few techs on the tech tree that I still think are weak. Most of the weak ones have already been purged. I went back to look at the AND tech tree from years back before I started working on it and I counted 57 techs that are completely gone, not counting renames to broaden a tech out and give it more stuff. If I had to pick 5 techs to remove, the top 5 would be:

1. Caste System
2. Glass Blowing
3. Usury
4. Cavalry Tactics
5. Nanotechnology

Cavalry Tactics isn't going anywhere without something to replace it between Matchlock and Flintlock. Nanotechnology is just a bad tech for the Modern Era -- it's "not ready for prime time" there, but the name would be perfect for the Transhuman Era in the slot currently occupied by Nanomachines. With one more Modern Era tech the switch would be done. I'm still not sure about keeping Glass Blowing; there's not much you can do with it beyond Glasssmith and Ishtar Gate. Beyond this, the only techs I really have problems with are Horse Breeding, because I think there's only room for one mounted tech per era, and I'd rather have Stirrup; Invention, which I don't feel is particularly well-defined; Jurisprudence, because I think it overlaps with Political Philosophy; and Virtual Reality, which I think is placed over-optimistically in the late Modern and probably needs to be in the Transhuman as well.

Caste System is another tech I consider really narrow. The most I can think of is a civic building for Warrior Caste, but I almost consider having the civic and the civic building at the same tech to be a bit of a cheat. I'd like to replace this with something else. I have come up with two possibilities that I think are good.

• The first is Law. This would represent pre-literate law codes. This might be confusing with having both this and Code of Laws, but I don't want to give up the BTS name.
  
• The second is Tradition. I think this one has a much stronger feel.

We would have one or the other, not both. Either way, it would be replacing Caste System and taking the Caste and Warrior Caste civics, along with pulling Despotism off of Masonry. Masonry has one of the highest trick counts (8.5) because it shares many early Wonders (Labyrinth, Sphinx, Pyramids, Chichen Itza, Great Lighthouse). It's a check to make sure that your civilization can build anything on this scale, but that inflates its trick count past the point that I consider healthy. I'd almost like to pull Hill of Tara here but that would bring Mysticism down to 3 tricks (Prophets civic, Shrine, and the reveal of Hemp+Tobacco). Three civics alone would make for an okay tech.

 

[<Nexus>]

Don't remove Caste System please. It's a very solid idea IMO. Just add Despotism, and it's fine.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I'm ok with the Tradition proposal, although I don't think Caste System is really that narrow.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm ok with the Tradition proposal, although I don't think Caste System is really that narrow.

I just think that we would better with a tech that could cover more forms of social status than just the hereditary nature of Caste System. It is the Ancient Era, so there aren't many forms of status yet, but I think the tech should cover a little bit more space.

 

[Vokarya]

I had a couple of strange ideas for technology moves. I'm not sure if they are very good. I'm just posting them to see where they might go.

1. What if Tradition replaced Mysticism in the Ancient Era, instead of Caste System? We have Ritualism as the "early religion" tech. I'm thinking that Tradition could replace Mysticism and Mysticism itself would move to the Classical Era. With the right choice of prerequisites, it might be possible to break up the concentration of religions (specifically the Literature/Hinduism - Meditation/Buddhism - Philosophy/Taoism chain). Also, I really don't like how fast The Oracle gets built since it only requires Priesthood, the AI gets a lot of bonuses early on, and it is programmed to beeline the religious techs. Oracle would be a good fit for a Classical Era Mysticism tech. Furthermore, most of Mysticism's tricks aren't very good. The Prophets civic isn't very useful until a religion actually spreads to your civilization, and the reveals of Hemp and Tobacco have to wait until Calendar to get an improvement bonus.

2. What if Consumerism was Modern Era instead of Industrial? I want one more Modern Era tech to give Nanotechnology the boot from the Modern Era to the Transhuman. Tunnel could be moved elsewhere and Nano Research Department sent off to Metamaterials. Consumerism would fit somewhere in the early Modern Era, probably either just before or just after Mass Media. (I also noticed that both Realism Invictus and World of Legends have Consumerism as a Modern Era tech.) Consumerism carries Civilized Jewelers and Fashion House corporations, Shopping District, and Madison Avenue. Pulling these to the Modern Era would not hurt too much. The problems here would be finding another Industrial Era tech to bring that era up to 40 and filling the hole that would be left between Propaganda and Applied Economics. It would not be awful if Applied Economics moved back a column. AE leads only to Globalization and Logistics requires you to get one tech from the last Industrial column before proceeding to the Modern.

 

[<Nexus>]

I had a couple of strange ideas for technology moves. I'm not sure if they are very good. I'm just posting them to see where they might go.

1. What if Tradition replaced Mysticism in the Ancient Era, instead of Caste System? We have Ritualism as the "early religion" tech. I'm thinking that Tradition could replace Mysticism and Mysticism itself would move to the Classical Era. With the right choice of prerequisites, it might be possible to break up the concentration of religions (specifically the Literature/Hinduism - Meditation/Buddhism - Philosophy/Taoism chain). Also, I really don't like how fast The Oracle gets built since it only requires Priesthood, the AI gets a lot of bonuses early on, and it is programmed to beeline the religious techs. Oracle would be a good fit for a Classical Era Mysticism tech. Furthermore, most of Mysticism's tricks aren't very good. The Prophets civic isn't very useful until a religion actually spreads to your civilization, and the reveals of Hemp and Tobacco have to wait until Calendar to get an improvement bonus.

Actually I like this idea better.
Do we need Mysticism at all? It's an ancient concept but too much the same as Ritualism. I vote to ax it instead (if possible).
And Prophets should not be moved into the classical. It's too "ancient" too.
Hemp and Tobacco: Could they require orchard instead of plantation?

2. What if Consumerism was Modern Era instead of Industrial?

Good.