Tech Tree Revisions
- Thread starter Vokarya
- Start date
I just draw pictures, man.
Spoiler :
Speaking of which, I am patching in a picture of slide 4, revised as you said, to the above post. Just for reference.
You know, while I reported the duplicated icons as a "bug", that marked only my inexperience with the prereq system. I would say now that the icon used in addition to a track line is a good signal that the tech has some sneaky disjunctive prerequisites. Look at how your attention is drawn to Pottery's incompleteness in the pic I just mentioned. While some exceptions really were redundant (e.g. Feudalism : CoL), I would not want to give up this (er..) technology for flagging complex prereqs. I anticipate using it to signal that Civil Service and Alchemy have squirrelly prereqs.
If I can do what I think I can do, it won't matter. The icons for any overridden OR tech will show up on the F6 screen. Your last slide 4 is almost there, but we just need a way to avoid hanging Bronze Working. If you move Hunting, Slavery, and Caste System up one row and Animal Husbandry down one row (you need to do this in order to not have the AH-Trade arrow go under HBR), that leaves enough room to move Archery in line with Hunting. Then you can move Masonry in line with Mining and draw a straight line. Right now, I would say that is about equal to what we have; it would hang Bronze Working but most likely not hang Meditation. That only leaves the question of how many overrides you have to use. The Ancient Era currently has 8.
Here's a quick update. The Python side is proving to be very interesting. (I'm getting over my reluctance to change anything on the XML side. I just have to prove to myself that yes, what is being offered really is an improvement. Then we'll be fine.)
I have a routine that successfully identifies the techs that are being used as OR prerequisites. The problems are that it's firing twice and it's not actually placing the icons properly. It's cutting off one icon on each overridden tech. I think it's a start.
I have a routine that successfully identifies the techs that are being used as OR prerequisites. The problems are that it's firing twice and it's not actually placing the icons properly. It's cutting off one icon on each overridden tech. I think it's a start.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
I got so close to having Trade be explicit, with some techniques like Stargazing -> Seafaring (plucking Sailing->Shipbuilding), and more inversions...
But get a load of this:
I already have medieval era rockin', so now I just gotta put in these last changes and I can show you a panorama of in-game screenshots.
edit: I was too excited not to post that right away. But I 'd like to acknowledge your emotions which seem to be saying that a quantification of the improvement is needed.
I think if you totalled up the overrides averted, that would miss the much more important work, which is how many times does a tech tell you everything vs. not? Trade in the current configuration and this one here both lie about its requirements, but now Warfare is explicit, Sculpture is explicit, Scriptures is fixed from the mess to being correct, I don't even remember how much of Monarchy I fixed, but I know that was lying.
And it's crucial that Metal Casting find its way to the top, away from the literacies, to make the medieval into renaissance flow as I will show. There is surely no saying no to these swaps now!
MORE: This is what must be sacrificed to get Pottery to be explicit. I'm confident that the second column just can't fit the seven techs otherwise.
I still like the previously displayed configuration.. the quantity lost versus gained is too great. I just had to satisfy myself of the challenge.
But get a load of this:
I already have medieval era rockin', so now I just gotta put in these last changes and I can show you a panorama of in-game screenshots.
edit: I was too excited not to post that right away. But I 'd like to acknowledge your emotions which seem to be saying that a quantification of the improvement is needed.
I think if you totalled up the overrides averted, that would miss the much more important work, which is how many times does a tech tell you everything vs. not? Trade in the current configuration and this one here both lie about its requirements, but now Warfare is explicit, Sculpture is explicit, Scriptures is fixed from the mess to being correct, I don't even remember how much of Monarchy I fixed, but I know that was lying.
And it's crucial that Metal Casting find its way to the top, away from the literacies, to make the medieval into renaissance flow as I will show. There is surely no saying no to these swaps now!
MORE: This is what must be sacrificed to get Pottery to be explicit. I'm confident that the second column just can't fit the seven techs otherwise.
I still like the previously displayed configuration.. the quantity lost versus gained is too great. I just had to satisfy myself of the challenge.
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Averting overrides is making the information explicit. You get arrows unless you override, so the number of overrides we have to use is the number of techs with hidden information.
I do not want to change anything just after Education. Education is supposed to be a choke-point; you cannot get into the Renaissance without it (three of the five starting Ren techs require Education straight-up and the other two require Algebra). There's nothing hidden between Patronage and Propaganda, so there's nothing to change there.
If you can get Paper to show all its arrows, that would be great. I think Patronage is a long-shot to draw a line all the way from Music. I'm not going to move techs out of their current columns, so Feudalism-Civil Service and Engineering-Alchemy aren't possible to draw.
Beyond the Renaissance, the next three overrides require techs in the same column (Communism to Propaganda; Combined Arms to Logistics; Satellites to Microprocessor) and column placement corresponds with both how easy is it to get to a tech and how much it costs, so it's really not possible to move techs to another column. The next tech with hidden info after that is Railgun. I think it's possible to flip Automated Vehicles and Artificial Intelligence to be able to draw the Automated Vehicles - Railgun line. Superstrong Alloys and Mind Uploading require techs in their column or even after. (Invisibility is a very old holdover; it used to be earlier but was bumped up by adding Holographics). Getting Androids closer to Cybernetics to cover Artificial Evolution might be more doable than I originally thought. I'll look into this side.
I do not want to change anything just after Education. Education is supposed to be a choke-point; you cannot get into the Renaissance without it (three of the five starting Ren techs require Education straight-up and the other two require Algebra). There's nothing hidden between Patronage and Propaganda, so there's nothing to change there.
If you can get Paper to show all its arrows, that would be great. I think Patronage is a long-shot to draw a line all the way from Music. I'm not going to move techs out of their current columns, so Feudalism-Civil Service and Engineering-Alchemy aren't possible to draw.
Beyond the Renaissance, the next three overrides require techs in the same column (Communism to Propaganda; Combined Arms to Logistics; Satellites to Microprocessor) and column placement corresponds with both how easy is it to get to a tech and how much it costs, so it's really not possible to move techs to another column. The next tech with hidden info after that is Railgun. I think it's possible to flip Automated Vehicles and Artificial Intelligence to be able to draw the Automated Vehicles - Railgun line. Superstrong Alloys and Mind Uploading require techs in their column or even after. (Invisibility is a very old holdover; it used to be earlier but was bumped up by adding Holographics). Getting Androids closer to Cybernetics to cover Artificial Evolution might be more doable than I originally thought. I'll look into this side.
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HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
edit: Uploading the middle section I missed...
There's a difference between a tech not showing everything required, and showing you need something not required. When Pottery appears after Wheel, it is the first case (and the icon hints that there is more information). When Warfare leaves off HBR but draws from Bronze Working, it is the second case and when the F6 screen is used it will lead to mistaken decisions. Put another way, trying to tech to Pottery and finding you need more is a better situation than teching to Warfare through Stone Working when in fact the HBR path was available (especially if you have horses and started on Hunting). Just how good it is can depend on how readily the links allow you to fill in what you missed, but there is a difference between these two types.
With this calculus, in the abstract it is an improvement to move Sculpture from just showing Masonry, to having a line override from Mythology, since this case can let you find what you need later. (For Warfare, contextual considerations allow us to discount HBR for being a "niche, uncommon" path to it.)
Don't worry about renaissance. All I'm doing is moving Algebra (, Perspective, Free Artistry) to the bottom, which is a dead end, and this links Algebra to Astronomy explicitly, and then moving Divine Right up top. Education is the end to my meddling; it's just housekeeping.
Every time I "finish" working on the start of the tree, another thought occurs to me. I think I've exhausted every possible "upside" by now, though. Pottery is foregone, as I said; the tradeoffs are now with Stargazing -> Priesthood, Warfare, and Trade. I'm just gonna try one more time to get Trade to show everything.
UPDATE: Nope. Sailing can't come down to meet Trade without blocking Warfare from getting -any- line, whether from BW or even just Archery. So, that leaves scoring.
The best one is at the top of post #724. It fixes the same background stuff, plus makes Warfare correct and Sculpture correct, while keeping two of three of Herbalism, Slavery, Husbrandry explicit (as is current and theoretically maximum). In other words, compared to everything else I came up with, it has a net score of 2 vs. what amounts to 0.
But that's not all! The baseline for all my attempts fix Scriptures, and migrate Metal Casting to where my medieval changes are compatible, which has a concrete bonus of connecting Meditation. So the overall gain from the current configuration I would score as 3.
*Now* I'm going to take screenshots. Soon as I look up the button for it...
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Here are screenshots. Some tweaking is obvious (e.g. Drama could move up 1), but observe the concept:
If desirable, please analyze in detail and I will be able to upload the TechInfos.xml which generates this F6.
edit: I erased Currency! Nevermind, I'm still tinkering.
There's a difference between a tech not showing everything required, and showing you need something not required. When Pottery appears after Wheel, it is the first case (and the icon hints that there is more information). When Warfare leaves off HBR but draws from Bronze Working, it is the second case and when the F6 screen is used it will lead to mistaken decisions. Put another way, trying to tech to Pottery and finding you need more is a better situation than teching to Warfare through Stone Working when in fact the HBR path was available (especially if you have horses and started on Hunting). Just how good it is can depend on how readily the links allow you to fill in what you missed, but there is a difference between these two types.
With this calculus, in the abstract it is an improvement to move Sculpture from just showing Masonry, to having a line override from Mythology, since this case can let you find what you need later. (For Warfare, contextual considerations allow us to discount HBR for being a "niche, uncommon" path to it.)
Don't worry about renaissance. All I'm doing is moving Algebra (, Perspective, Free Artistry) to the bottom, which is a dead end, and this links Algebra to Astronomy explicitly, and then moving Divine Right up top. Education is the end to my meddling; it's just housekeeping.
Every time I "finish" working on the start of the tree, another thought occurs to me. I think I've exhausted every possible "upside" by now, though. Pottery is foregone, as I said; the tradeoffs are now with Stargazing -> Priesthood, Warfare, and Trade. I'm just gonna try one more time to get Trade to show everything.
UPDATE: Nope. Sailing can't come down to meet Trade without blocking Warfare from getting -any- line, whether from BW or even just Archery. So, that leaves scoring.
The best one is at the top of post #724. It fixes the same background stuff, plus makes Warfare correct and Sculpture correct, while keeping two of three of Herbalism, Slavery, Husbrandry explicit (as is current and theoretically maximum). In other words, compared to everything else I came up with, it has a net score of 2 vs. what amounts to 0.
But that's not all! The baseline for all my attempts fix Scriptures, and migrate Metal Casting to where my medieval changes are compatible, which has a concrete bonus of connecting Meditation. So the overall gain from the current configuration I would score as 3.
*Now* I'm going to take screenshots. Soon as I look up the button for it...
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Here are screenshots. Some tweaking is obvious (e.g. Drama could move up 1), but observe the concept:
edit: I erased Currency! Nevermind, I'm still tinkering.
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Overall, I'd say the Ancient Era looks very good.
The Classical and Medieval have a problem. I won't do even-numbered Y-coordinates. I know you're trying very hard, but there are some things that I won't do. I think doing the offset techs makes lines hard to distinguish when they run next to other techs (look at Crop Rotation), and that's one of the things that several other people have complained about in the past. I also find it looks very bad to have the tiny little line-breaks when a tech goes up or down only one step. It makes the techs look like they're being shoved in.
Here's how I think we can salvage this. It's going to break some arrows. I think it's still better than what we currently have, so that's some points in its favor. I'm working on getting the icons for overridden OR techs to appear on the F6 screen, but the arrows are more intuitive, so preserving them if it's possible would be preferable, emphasis on the possible.
The Classical and Medieval have a problem. I won't do even-numbered Y-coordinates. I know you're trying very hard, but there are some things that I won't do. I think doing the offset techs makes lines hard to distinguish when they run next to other techs (look at Crop Rotation), and that's one of the things that several other people have complained about in the past. I also find it looks very bad to have the tiny little line-breaks when a tech goes up or down only one step. It makes the techs look like they're being shoved in.
Here's how I think we can salvage this. It's going to break some arrows. I think it's still better than what we currently have, so that's some points in its favor. I'm working on getting the icons for overridden OR techs to appear on the F6 screen, but the arrows are more intuitive, so preserving them if it's possible would be preferable, emphasis on the possible.
- Move Mechanics up (Y=3). I don't see why you have to have the space between it and Stirrup. That one just looks like an oversight.
- Break the line between Alphabet and Literature. Literature is going to have to hang with no inbound arrows. Move Aesthetics up (Y=13), Meditation up (Y=15), Literature down (Y=17), and Philosophy up (Y=15). Draw the line from Theology to Alchemy, not Philosophy to Alchemy. (It's a shorter line.) Literature-Drama-Music-Theology-Alchemy-Optics will keep that line connected to the rest of the tree.
- Break the line between Theology and Paper. Move Papacy down to Y=17 and draw the line from Theology to Papacy. I also don't like the line from Politics to Papacy -- it looks too long and is likely to get lost when scrolling. Move Paper up to Y=15 and see if either the Alchemy-Paper or Charters-Paper line goes under Papacy. If it does, break that line too. Then move Crop Rotation down (Y=9). There MIGHT be something else there. I have another post to make on that topic.
Here's something I noticed while looking at the screenshots. Columns 12 and 13, which are Medieval Level 2, are not split properly. (These are the techs one level removed from the starter techs of the Medieval Era.) Medieval-2 is 10 techs, which means it has to be spread among 2 columns. Otherwise, it looks like a wall. To break up the walls, I won't put more than 8 actual techs in a column, even though 10 could fit.
Medieval-2 is currently split 7/3, with Guilds, Papacy, and Usury as the more expensive techs in column 13. I'm thinking a 5-5 split would be better here. I definitely want to see Engineering moved up a column, because it's a pretty powerful tech with Castles and Crossbowmen. I'm thinking either Alchemy or Charters should be moved too.
The weaker techs are the ones that can stay in column 12: Heraldry (only a couple minor items), Rudder (useful for ships and Asatru but not much else), Holy War (good for religion), and Crop Rotation (probably the best tech in that column), plus one of Alchemy/Charters.
Medieval-2 is currently split 7/3, with Guilds, Papacy, and Usury as the more expensive techs in column 13. I'm thinking a 5-5 split would be better here. I definitely want to see Engineering moved up a column, because it's a pretty powerful tech with Castles and Crossbowmen. I'm thinking either Alchemy or Charters should be moved too.
The weaker techs are the ones that can stay in column 12: Heraldry (only a couple minor items), Rudder (useful for ships and Asatru but not much else), Holy War (good for religion), and Crop Rotation (probably the best tech in that column), plus one of Alchemy/Charters.
I was able to rewrite the Transhuman Era to remove the overrides on Railgun and Artificial Evolution. It still leaves 5 overrides in the Industrial Era and later, but they aren't really avoidable. They all result from OR prerequisites that are in the same column as the tech they are leading to, and those arrows look terrible.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Yeah that goes without saying.
After hearing your passion on the subject of tree design vs. appearance, I really really don't want to tip you in any particular direction on redesigning "medieval-2". I draw pictures, and your stance on prioritizing the appearance lower has integrity.
I have some tricks up my sleeve yet. The lines in medieval are very mobile, and now especially moreso if Literature is freefloating (which is forced by the ban on even number positions).
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Heartbreaking conclusion on this update. The arrow for no reason acts unlike other arrows in the same conditions...
Yet here is medieval era: No arrows under techs, no arrow more than 3 techs away, all on the odd-numbered y-grid, and just one unnecessary arrow crossing:
Yet here is medieval era: No arrows under techs, no arrow more than 3 techs away, all on the odd-numbered y-grid, and just one unnecessary arrow crossing:
That's looking better. I would swap Code of Laws and Currency and move Ancient Medicine down a place. It'll make the Ancient Medicine - Alchemy line easier to follow. Also move Education up one place and put some distance between it and Mountaineering. It will really straighten out that tangle of lines. You might be able to tighten up some other lines. I always shoot for the minimum distance when trying to draw lines.
I'm afraid we're going to have to do an override on the Alchemy-Paper line. I've been told no crossed lines at all. It's a good try, and I wouldn't have trouble following it, but I've been told other people do.
Splitting Medieval-2 is totally my decision. I prefer to split columns when there's more than 8 techs (and absolutely must split when there's more than 10, but Classical-2 is the only time that happens; if you look closely, you'll see there are 12 techs there). So when a split is necessary, I prefer a balanced split.
I'm afraid we're going to have to do an override on the Alchemy-Paper line. I've been told no crossed lines at all. It's a good try, and I wouldn't have trouble following it, but I've been told other people do.
Splitting Medieval-2 is totally my decision. I prefer to split columns when there's more than 8 techs (and absolutely must split when there's more than 10, but Classical-2 is the only time that happens; if you look closely, you'll see there are 12 techs there). So when a split is necessary, I prefer a balanced split.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
I don't know why it worked, but if I tinker with the order in which the prereqs for Paper are listed, I can get this effect: (!!!) nah, it's because Charters is at Y = 7. In either Heraldry or Crop Rotation's place, it draws a different and not-helpful arrow.
Mission accomplished!
And Education straightens out at Y = 9:
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(Doing what you suggested above would remove the ability of Currency to show an arrow from Mathematics.) Trust me, there is no "near" image to the one I just posted which functions at all. Every alternative either sacrifices Paper, or the legibility rules. It took literally every trick to make that work.
If you do choose to redesign the tree at any time, give me a call and I'll be excited to crack the F6 again.
Mission accomplished!
And Education straightens out at Y = 9:
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(Doing what you suggested above would remove the ability of Currency to show an arrow from Mathematics.) Trust me, there is no "near" image to the one I just posted which functions at all. Every alternative either sacrifices Paper, or the legibility rules. It took literally every trick to make that work.
If you do choose to redesign the tree at any time, give me a call and I'll be excited to crack the F6 again.
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OK. Can you zip your XML file and post it? I can merge it with what I have. I get what you said about Currency.
I'd like to try moving Paper down just one and seeing where the arrows bend. I don't particularly like how Alchemy and Charter's arrows merge together, but it's not a major hangup.
Out of curiosity, did you try Sanitation at Y=9 and with the arrow off Ancient Medicine? It seems to me that if the Ancient Medicine-Alchemy line is still legible, Mechanics-Smithing-Machinery can be a straight line rather than the bend it currently has. I might try that just to see.
I'd like to try moving Paper down just one and seeing where the arrows bend. I don't particularly like how Alchemy and Charter's arrows merge together, but it's not a major hangup.
Out of curiosity, did you try Sanitation at Y=9 and with the arrow off Ancient Medicine? It seems to me that if the Ancient Medicine-Alchemy line is still legible, Mechanics-Smithing-Machinery can be a straight line rather than the bend it currently has. I might try that just to see.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
Yeah Sanitation can move. I left the tree in case you would insist on the Sanitation -> Civil Service arrow. I do feel grateful that you understand my feelings on overrides in cases like for that tech.
You can try that out for Paper, but I have come to expect the worst in every case that an arrow has to descend. They're predictable when they go up; not when they come down. Or... why am I theorizing when I want to check it myself?
*applies change, tests*
Bologna. Moving Paper down makes the arrow from Alchemy draw to the top of Paper, while Theology draws to Paper's middle. Pure applesauce.
Extract the file and then drop the .bk extension. I confirmed Sanitation can move but it's not in this file.
edit:You can't move Machinery anyway because Guilds and Engineering have to be in this orientation. The arrow to Guilds will ascend late, going through Engineering. derp you meant smithing. that's fine
You can try that out for Paper, but I have come to expect the worst in every case that an arrow has to descend. They're predictable when they go up; not when they come down. Or... why am I theorizing when I want to check it myself?
*applies change, tests*
Bologna. Moving Paper down makes the arrow from Alchemy draw to the top of Paper, while Theology draws to Paper's middle. Pure applesauce.
Extract the file and then drop the .bk extension. I confirmed Sanitation can move but it's not in this file.
edit:
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Here is something I thought of last night. I would like to consider moving Flintlock forward one column and making Chemistry a prerequisite. I would also like to consider eliminating Cavalry Tactics at the same time.
The current position of Flintlock is mostly dictated by the former presence of Rifling in the Renaissance Era. Matchlock, Flintlock, and Rifling used to be all Renaissance Era techs. To give Arquebusier, Musketman, and Rifleman a fair chance to be useful on the battlefield, Matchlock was placed in the first third of the era, Flintlock in the second, and Rifling in the final third. With Rifling now in the Industrial Era, this is no longer true. So I was thinking it would be better to move Flintlock so it just barely edges into the second HALF of the Renaissance, giving the early-Renaissance and late-Medieval units a longer lifespan.
The dedicated mounted combat techs are a concept that I have been trying to weed out of the tech tree, going for the broadest possible concepts when choosing techs. Chariotry, Mounted Archery, and Armored Cavalry are all former techs that have been removed. Horseback Riding, Horse Breeding, and Chivalry have been broad enough that they aren't just about mounted combat. I'm on the fence about Stirrup. (The other class of techs that I don't really care for are the naval combat techs. Ship building techs like Rudder and Screw Propeller are acceptable. I think it's very telling that the only dedicated water techs in BTS are Fishing and Sailing. Every other ship is the result of a non-naval tech.) Cavalry Tactics only survived as long as it did because I wanted something between Matchlock and Flintlock. Chemistry would do the job just as well, and Chemistry doesn't lead to any other Renaissance tech, only Photography and Steam Power in the Industrial Era. We can find a place to reassign the Cuirassier and Dragoon.
The only major drawback that I can see is this pushes Naval Tactics forward as well, possibly pushing Man-O-War too close to Ship of the Line. The solution I am thinking of is to make the Man-O-War the first unit in the Cruiser line instead of the Battleship line, and then creating a new "Armored Cruiser" unit to bridge the gap between the Man-O-War and the Battlecruiser.
The current position of Flintlock is mostly dictated by the former presence of Rifling in the Renaissance Era. Matchlock, Flintlock, and Rifling used to be all Renaissance Era techs. To give Arquebusier, Musketman, and Rifleman a fair chance to be useful on the battlefield, Matchlock was placed in the first third of the era, Flintlock in the second, and Rifling in the final third. With Rifling now in the Industrial Era, this is no longer true. So I was thinking it would be better to move Flintlock so it just barely edges into the second HALF of the Renaissance, giving the early-Renaissance and late-Medieval units a longer lifespan.
The dedicated mounted combat techs are a concept that I have been trying to weed out of the tech tree, going for the broadest possible concepts when choosing techs. Chariotry, Mounted Archery, and Armored Cavalry are all former techs that have been removed. Horseback Riding, Horse Breeding, and Chivalry have been broad enough that they aren't just about mounted combat. I'm on the fence about Stirrup. (The other class of techs that I don't really care for are the naval combat techs. Ship building techs like Rudder and Screw Propeller are acceptable. I think it's very telling that the only dedicated water techs in BTS are Fishing and Sailing. Every other ship is the result of a non-naval tech.) Cavalry Tactics only survived as long as it did because I wanted something between Matchlock and Flintlock. Chemistry would do the job just as well, and Chemistry doesn't lead to any other Renaissance tech, only Photography and Steam Power in the Industrial Era. We can find a place to reassign the Cuirassier and Dragoon.
The only major drawback that I can see is this pushes Naval Tactics forward as well, possibly pushing Man-O-War too close to Ship of the Line. The solution I am thinking of is to make the Man-O-War the first unit in the Cruiser line instead of the Battleship line, and then creating a new "Armored Cruiser" unit to bridge the gap between the Man-O-War and the Battlecruiser.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
on Unit naming, wouldn't "Heavy Cruiser" be more apt, then the "Armoured Cruiser". Heavy and light gives reference to the plating of the ships, guns etc.
HorseshoeHermit
20% accurate as usual, Morty
I made a boo-boo with Guilds. In the file you'll see it has a commented-out reference to Feudalism in the AndPrereqs... it's currently referring Machinery twice.
I was really worried about something like that. Nightmare!
I was really worried about something like that. Nightmare!
"Armored cruiser" and "protected cruiser" are the names actually used for late 19th-early 20th century cruisers prior to the development of the battlecruiser, and that is where this proposed unit is going to go. I thought the name sounded reasonably accurate without being anachronistic (like the Pre-Dreadnought).
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