Tech Tree Revisions

[Rezca]

I'd be okay with pushing Oracle back further; in my recent two games after updating to the latest revision, the AI almost always build the Oracle before Stonehenge is completed!


I'd be okay with the Consumerism move, though I'm not 100% sure about Mysticism. Could work, but I don't really have a set opinion on that.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I had a couple of strange ideas for technology moves. I'm not sure if they are very good. I'm just posting them to see where they might go.

1. What if Tradition replaced Mysticism in the Ancient Era, instead of Caste System? We have Ritualism as the "early religion" tech. I'm thinking that Tradition could replace Mysticism and Mysticism itself would move to the Classical Era. With the right choice of prerequisites, it might be possible to break up the concentration of religions (specifically the Literature/Hinduism - Meditation/Buddhism - Philosophy/Taoism chain). Also, I really don't like how fast The Oracle gets built since it only requires Priesthood, the AI gets a lot of bonuses early on, and it is programmed to beeline the religious techs. Oracle would be a good fit for a Classical Era Mysticism tech. Furthermore, most of Mysticism's tricks aren't very good. The Prophets civic isn't very useful until a religion actually spreads to your civilization, and the reveals of Hemp and Tobacco have to wait until Calendar to get an improvement bonus.

2. What if Consumerism was Modern Era instead of Industrial? I want one more Modern Era tech to give Nanotechnology the boot from the Modern Era to the Transhuman. Tunnel could be moved elsewhere and Nano Research Department sent off to Metamaterials. Consumerism would fit somewhere in the early Modern Era, probably either just before or just after Mass Media. (I also noticed that both Realism Invictus and World of Legends have Consumerism as a Modern Era tech.) Consumerism carries Civilized Jewelers and Fashion House corporations, Shopping District, and Madison Avenue. Pulling these to the Modern Era would not hurt too much. The problems here would be finding another Industrial Era tech to bring that era up to 40 and filling the hole that would be left between Propaganda and Applied Economics. It would not be awful if Applied Economics moved back a column. AE leads only to Globalization and Logistics requires you to get one tech from the last Industrial column before proceeding to the Modern.

Not sure if the changes are needed, but they look ok to me.

 

[Vokarya]

Not sure if the changes are needed, but they look ok to me.

I didn't say this was something I was definitely going to do, but they seemed like ideas worth looking into.

Nanotechnology in the Modern Era bothers me. I count it as one of the last few "riddles" of the tech tree. At that particular point on the tree, nanotechnology is being developed, not a mature tech. The applications are not yet global enough to show up at the scale of the game, while what is currently Nanomachines (and will be Nanotechnology if I can cut the Modern tech) definitely meets that criteria, with the Nanofactory and the nanite units. So I was looking for a tech that could be added to the Modern Era to cut the current Nanotechnology while leaving the era at 40 techs, and Consumerism popped up as a possibility. I had considered it as a Modern Era tech before.

Moving Mysticism was just a semi-random idea but I thought it had potential for religion shuffling.

 

[RyoHazuki]

I dont like either how the Oracle works now, its being built very soon and, techs that can be given free are not usually so powerful, perhaps alphabet it is the easy way to make it worth, but as the oracle is usually built on capital and the efect doesnt last on time, the wonder slot that occupy can be a strong reason to skip it and focus on any other. Just my opinion, i wonder if it should have "+1 wonder slot" or another minor effect. If its moved forward in the tech tree, it could be much more useful, i agree on that.

 

[Vokarya]

Incoming idea. (Duck and cover.)

What if Rifling was Industrial Era?

I've pretty much settled on Consumerism moving to the Modern Era (early in the Era) to allow removing Nanotechnology (specifically as a Modern Era tech, renaming the current Nanomachines tech to Nanotechnology) while still keeping the Modern Era at 40 techs. I also want to keep the Industrial Era at 40 techs. I thought of some potential ideas that didn't look like they would pan out:

• Capitalism in the sense of late-19th/early-20th "robber barons" seemed kind of interesting, but would be hard to distinguish from Industrialism.
  
• Equality might make a good late-Industrial tech, but I can't think of what to give it besides the Universal Suffrage wonder.
  
• None of the techs that were previously in the Industrial Era look like they were worth bringing back. If they were, I wouldn't have cut them in the first place. Public Health and Modern Art seem like the most likely, but there are issues with having too many techs with a health focus (the Industrial Era already has Medicine and to a lesser extent Biology, Organic Chemistry, and Socialism) or a culture focus (both Motion Pictures and Radio are right around where Modern Art was before).

On top of that, I feel that the Arquebusier-Musketman-Rifleman units are too clustered together. In fact, looking at these units was how I created my "one-third" rule that says you shouldn't have unit upgrades within the same third of an era. I'm thinking now that this is still too fast and might need to be slowed down to a "one-half" rule where a unit should only upgrade twice within an era, once early and once late. Moving Rifling to the first column of the Industrial Era would open up some more distance between Musketmen/Riflemen and Cuirassier/Cavalry. I also noticed that both Civ5 and Civ6 have made Rifling into an Industrial Era tech. Looking at real history for clues, rifles belonged to hunters and specialists around the early 19th century and didn't become general issue until the mid-19th. I'm willing to fudge this a little and have Riflemen available at the beginning of the Industrial Era, around 1800, to provide an adequate lifespan before upgrading to Infantry, which is supposed to happen around WWI.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Honestly? I'm all in for this idea, and in general, more space between the Arquebuiser-Musketman-Rifleman chain. It feels like you can advance too quickly in that chain. Can you increase the cost necessary to update an unit? Cuz I think that maybe it'd make sense to turn all your melee/archers into gunpowder units to be...a bit expensive.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I like your idea too Vokarya.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Upgrade costing, should be scaled to game speed.

I play eternity speed, and the cost of 60 gold to upgrade one unit, is nothing.

I regularly upgrade 200-500 units at a time, and I could be making 5k GOLD per turn.

Even the cost of 100-300 gold per unit is nothing, Maybe leave some advantage for the AI, but increase the cost, or LIMIT the numbers to be upgraded per turn.

On muskets/Arquebusiers/ Rifles definitely spread them out more, I usually skip the 1st and go straight to the 2nd level

 

[Vokarya]

Something is not right as far as unit upgrade costs go.

In vanilla BTS, on normal speed, standard world size, and Noble difficulty, it's 110 gold to upgrade a Musketman to a Rifleman. This matches the formula: Upgrade cost = (BASE_UNIT_UPGRADE_COST) + (UNIT_UPGRADE_COST_PER_PRODUCTION * difference in unit costs). Musketman is 80, Rifleman is 110, difference is 30. BASE_UNIT_UPGRADE_COST is 20, UNIT_UPGRADE_COST_PER_PRODUCTION is 3. 20 + (30*3) = 110, which is expected.

In AND, it only costs 36 gold to upgrade the same Musketman on normal speed/standard size/Noble difficulty. This is despite UNIT_UPGRADE_COST_PER_PRODUCTION being set to 50. Increasing the number to 100 raises the upgrade cost to 53.

There is a lot of extra code in CvUnit.cpp related to unit price upgrades. I don't understand all of it. It starts at int CvUnit::upgradePrice, line 11283. Something else has to be changing the upgrade prices.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, if you subtract the base 20 from 36 and 53 and then divide by 3, you're left with 5.333 and 11, both of which are roughly 10% of the 50 and 100 you quoted. Try setting UNIT_UPGRADE_COST_PER_PRODUCTION to 300 and see if that approximates the original AND result.

 

[Vokarya]

Well, if you subtract the base 20 from 36 and 53 and then divide by 3, you're left with 5.333 and 11, both of which are roughly 10% of the 50 and 100 you quoted. Try setting UNIT_UPGRADE_COST_PER_PRODUCTION to 300 and see if that approximates the original AND result.

300 gives 119 gold to upgrade. Setting the BASE_UNIT_UPGRADE_COST to 120 increases the cost to 135, so that's a straight add. I'd just like to know why the UNIT_UPGRADE part is reduced to 10% of its BTS effect.

 

[Vokarya]

So I'm working out some of the new relationships between techs as they are moving around. One is straightforward, two not so much but I think will work.

The easy one: Armor Crafting requires Engineering instead of Machinery. This moves Armor Crafting up into the slot being vacated by the removal of Armored Cavalry. It keeps Chivalry in the 4th column and Divine Right in the 5th, rather than letting them fall backwards a level. I don't want Chivalry to show up too early in the Medieval, and I want to keep Divine Right at the end of the Medieval so Medieval-5 doesn't seem like an outlier level. Education at Medieval-4 is the gateway tech to the Renaissance, with Algebra requiring Education and Compass requiring Education or Clockworks (also Medieval-4) but still Medieval. Outliers beyond the minimum techs necessary to make the era jump should be avoided as much as possible.

More difficult: what should be the relationship of Rifling to Military Science? Right now, Rifling is moving up at least one column, from the last column of the Renaissance to the first column of the Industrial. I think Rifling would be even better in the second column, after Military Science. Military Science has no land units of its own; it has Ironclad/Iron Frigate, Military Academy, and the Blitz and Commando promotions. It's still a solid tech without land units. Rifling can then lead into Artillery without affecting the rest of the tech tree. Automatic Weapons and the Infantry unit don't come along until Industrial-7, so Industrial-1 or Industrial-2 would be safe for Rifling. Industrial-3 is probably too far.

Consumerism is another puzzle to place in the Modern Era. I think Manufacturing + Mass Media would be an excellent set of prerequisites for Consumerism. I don't want Mass Media too late, and I think putting Consumerism at the Modern-3 level would work. Consumerism would then lead into both Conglomerates, replacing both prerequisites (which are the same as what Consumerism is getting) and replacing Mass Media in the prerequisites for Counterculture.

 

[Vokarya]

Tunnels need a new home since I am cutting Nanotechnology from the Modern Era. Is Seismology too early for the Tunnel? Seismology is Modern-2, which should be reached around the early 1950's. I don't see a lot of other techs that are super-appropriate.

 

[Rezca]

Tunnels need a new home since I am cutting Nanotechnology from the Modern Era. Is Seismology too early for the Tunnel? Seismology is Modern-2, which should be reached around the early 1950's. I don't see a lot of other techs that are super-appropriate.

Seismology I think would be okay as the earliest possible point, but I think it might need to come later. Unless a more appropriate tech that isn't already content-loaded can be found, then I say just stick it at Seismology for the time being at the very least.

Of course, being "just another route type", barbarian War Galleys can also pillage said seafloor passage just fine... Though I guess continent-bridging isn't really what they were intended to be used for, but rather one to three tile bridges. Enemy ships will just sail past blockades to pillage them and they take a painfully long time to make only to be pillaged in a single turn.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I've always felt tunnels came too late, probably because they weren't in the base game and the one most people are familiar with is the Chunnel. But tunnels were capable of carrying traffic underwater at least as early as the Michigan Central Railway Tunnel, which started in 1904 and finished in 1910. Modern-2 is perhaps even a little late, historically speaking, and certainly not too early.

As for gameplay concerns, I don't think tunnels offer such a staggering benefit that they need to be held back to late modern or even early transhuman. They're more of a convenience feature than anything.

 

[Rezca]

I've always felt tunnels came too late, probably because they weren't in the base game and the one most people are familiar with is the Chunnel. But tunnels were capable of carrying traffic underwater at least as early as the Michigan Central Railway Tunnel, which started in 1904 and finished in 1910. Modern-2 is perhaps even a little late, historically speaking, and certainly not too early.

As for gameplay concerns, I don't think tunnels offer such a staggering benefit that they need to be held back to late modern or even early transhuman. They're more of a convenience feature than anything.

Which is a tunnel through a river, not along the ocean floor connecting two distant continents.

The thing that IMO keeps this tunnel as we have it late in the game is that it can be used for deep oceanfloor tunneling, where a "somewhat current tech" tunnel most certainly couldn't.
Unless we had a separate Tunnel route that could only be built on coast (And so could be used for bridging small gaps of land) I wouldn't think it should come too early either.

Plus, it already takes like twenty turns for a Transhuman ship to build a single tunnel piece. It'd take forever for earlier ones to do the same....... Unless there's no real difference in work speed?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Which is a tunnel through a river, not along the ocean floor connecting two distant continents.

The thing that IMO keeps this tunnel as we have it late in the game is that it can be used for deep oceanfloor tunneling, where a "somewhat current tech" tunnel most certainly couldn't.
Unless we had a separate Tunnel route that could only be built on coast (And so could be used for bridging small gaps of land) I wouldn't think it should come too early either.

Plus, it already takes like twenty turns for a Transhuman ship to build a single tunnel piece. It'd take forever for earlier ones to do the same....... Unless there's no real difference in work speed?

Tunneling between continents is expensive and essentially worthless. The tunnels have low movement bonuses compared to land routes, so they're always going to be massively slower than even Galleons, much less the Steamers+ they're actually competing with. During wartime, they expose land units to naval units that are massively stronger until the transhuman era - compare the 64-strength Battleship to the 32-strength Infantry that is its contemporary. AND they're easy to pillage, which wastes all the effort of building them and potentially strands a crossing army in the middle of the ocean.

It's also extremely time consuming, as you note, to the point that even if the technology "technically" becomes available in the not!1950s a working intercontinental tunnel still won't be finished until late modern at the earliest. Spamming a huge number of vulnerable workboats would allow it to happen sooner, but that's investing a lot of resources into what will always only be a vanity project.

In practical terms, useful tunnels are coastal ones between island and mainland cities, and the technology to build something like that is definitely extant. Extending that as a vanity project might not be plausible, but more because it would be staggeringly expensive and undesirable than because it's not technically feasible. It would be unsafe (unimaginably so for military movements), move people and material far slower than ships can, cost countless billions if not trillions of dollars...

... which is a lot like an intercontinental tunnel in the game, really, except that expensive as they are they're still not quite as expensive as the real thing would be.

 

[Rezca]

Yeah I pretty much only ever used them either just to show I could, or to connect smaller islands with each other where moving units over the tunnels would be quicker than loading them onto a transport, waiting, then unloading them, and then waiting for the unload stall to end.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I've always felt that tunnels come way too early. No matter if you use them to only connect a one tile away island, technically you might connect two very distant continents which is absurd in early modern. We might have coastal tunnels and ocean tunnels but it requires additional coding which I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Why does it matter that they could theoretically be used for some crazy intercontinental project if they're only actually used for island connections? In gameplay terms they're a convenience feature and should be available at the earliest possible opportunity. Keep in mind, they're currently at end-of-modern Nanotechnology, which is too late for even the Chunnel, and the question is where to move them when that tech moves.

It seems like the options are:

1) Move them to 1950ish Seismology as-is. Their practical uses would represent real-world immersed tube tunnels, and be appropriate for even earlier than 1950. The AI will never "misuse" them by building intercontinental tunnels impossible with that era's technology. A player will only ever do so as a vanity project, or possibly to connect a three- or four-tile gap between islands or continents within their cultural borders, equivalent to the Chunnel, and these will only be usable dozens of turns after the tech is unlocked. The gameplay effect is that coastal tunnels actually see some play.

2) Move them to a transhuman tech as-is (perhaps leave them on Nanomachines, if it's moving rather than being cut?). They still won't be practical for anything but short distance tunnels, but the possibility of intercontinental tunnels will be... well, probably no more plausible, because both in game and IRL they'd remain impractical no matter what your tech base. But that possibility can at least be handwaved with "Nanomachines, son." The gameplay effect is that coastal tunnels are pushed even further into irrelevance and oceanic tunnels still don't matter.

3) Move them to 1950ish Seismology but restrict them to coastal (or within cultural borders?). This eliminates the possibility of a vanity project intercontinental tunnel but involves extra coding to clean up something that seems irrelevant in actual play.

4) Move them to 1950ish Seismology and restrict them as in 3, then add oceanic tunnels as a separate road type somewhere in the transhuman era, presumably with a high enough movespeed that they are in-game practical.

4 would be cool because big tunnels might actually be of use, but 1 seems like the simplest, and essentially equivalent to 3 in actual play. The only objection seems to be purely aesthetic. The tunnels might, but will not, be used for something the technology couldn't plausibly accomplish.