Tech Tree Revisions

[Vokarya]

Wouldn't you transfer Aristo's requirement of Caste System onto Vassalage? Then it doesn't have only one prereq.

I was going to put Caste System as a prereq for Monarchy, and Iron Working for Vassalage. Caste System to Vassalage is a bit too long a jump for my taste.

 

[Vokarya]

Weird thought: Should the Espionage slider be tech-limited? Right now, we have free movement of the Science slider from the beginning of the game, and the Culture slider can be adjusted starting at Drama. The Espionage slider can be adjusted as soon as you meet another civilization, but this doesn't seem like something an early civilization should be able to do. I don't see an appropriate tech that is really crying out for tricks, but I think it would be appropriate to put this off until Alphabet and the availability of Spies.

 

[Arakhor]

That sounds like a reasonable idea.

 

[<Nexus>]

Weird thought: Should the Espionage slider be tech-limited?

It's not that weird. I thought it was always like that So go for it.

 

[Vokarya]

What about this: what if the tax/science slider was locked at the beginning of the game? This is possible to do with the current XML. It produces some interesting effects; you don't collect any gold if your income is higher than your expenses, but you can still collect gold from goody huts; you can lose gold from having too big an army; if you run out of gold, your tax rate can be forced upward, but it doesn't reset if you disband some of your units.

If we did this -- and it's a big if -- it would only be for a short period of time in the early game. A tech like Trade or Writing would unlock the sliders. I think it would be very appropriate for a Prehistoric Era game that doesn't yet understand trade or money.

 

[<Nexus>]

Would be interesting. I thought of that too but was never brave enough to try

I think Writing is the better choice to place it.

Question: Don't you feel that Writing and Alphabet are a bit overcrowded with tricks? Shouldn't these 2 split into 3 if possible? (Even if the main mod doesn't need it I'd be happy to hear some ideas)

 

[aggri1]

What about this: what if the tax/science slider was locked at the beginning of the game? This is possible to do with the current XML. It produces some interesting effects; you don't collect any gold if your income is higher than your expenses, but you can still collect gold from goody huts; you can lose gold from having too big an army; if you run out of gold, your tax rate can be forced upward, but it doesn't reset if you disband some of your units.

If we did this -- and it's a big if -- it would only be for a short period of time in the early game. A tech like Trade or Writing would unlock the sliders. I think it would be very appropriate for a Prehistoric Era game that doesn't yet understand trade or money.

So, since we start with zero, those of us who don't play with goody huts would have no gold at all until the slider allowed it to change. Unless we built units to force the tax rate up and then disbanded the units for gold and then collected the subsequent tax income. Awkward!

Not in favour.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

So, since we start with zero, those of us who don't play with goody huts would have no gold at all until the slider allowed it to change. Unless we built units to force the tax rate up and then disbanded the units for gold and then collected the subsequent tax income. Awkward!

Not in favour.

I concur.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

I can see justifying that as a way of taking a "I lose" button out of the hand of the absolute novice for the beginning of the game. OTOH, it kind of makes the gold slider seem like more of a bonus than it is. It's also difficult to say it should not be available until Trade, yet it's difficult to attach it to anything earlier, either.

I also think that there should be a build wealth option from the start of the game - just one that creates wealth about equal to what you could get by building and disbanding warriors.

 

[Samson]

I can see justifying that as a way of taking a "I lose" button out of the hand of the absolute novice for the beginning of the game. OTOH, it kind of makes the gold slider seem like more of a bonus than it is. It's also difficult to say it should not be available until Trade, yet it's difficult to attach it to anything earlier, either.

I also think that there should be a build wealth option from the start of the game - just one that creates wealth about equal to what you could get by building and disbanding warriors.

Or perhaps equal to building and disbanding chariots, because that is one of the biggest differences between having horses or not.

 

[Vokarya]

First, the tax rate doesn't have to start at zero. I was thinking of a 50% tax/50% science split to start. That will provide an income that can be used to defray expenses; you won't see any surplus, but you also won't see a negative until your expenses actually outweigh your income. Even on Deity, this is enough to support 12 units from the capital alone.

Second, at this point in the game, is there anything to actually spend gold on, besides maintenance? Random events are about the only thing I can think of, and those can be toned down or delayed. This is well before trading Gold or rushing with Gold is allowed, and I don't think there are any improvements with a gold cost available either.

 

[Arakhor]

The early game economy just calls out for "goody-hut deficit", where you raise your science as high as possible and use exploration to fill the void. This might be an effective way around that.

 

[<Nexus>]

The early game economy just calls out for "goody-hut deficit", where you raise your science as high as possible and use exploration to fill the void. This might be an effective way around that.

Yeah, the early game would need more goody-hut like stuff. Hunting and gathering for example. We've got hunting, yes, but gathering could be more.
Remember the berry bushes in Age of Empires? You gathered those and than they were gone.
Or think of the Heroes of Might&Magic way: the early game is mostly about picking up objects - resources mainly. If only Civ4 had something similar

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Second, at this point in the game, is there anything to actually spend gold on, besides maintenance? Random events are about the only thing I can think of, and those can be toned down or delayed. This is well before trading Gold or rushing with Gold is allowed, and I don't think there are any improvements with a gold cost available either.

Events. Plain and simple.

There are plenty of various events that both give you small amounts of gold and that require small amounts of investment. And those are typically really powerful and/or devastating in the early age. Like say having a forest burn down or a mine collapse can be crippling if you've used your one and only worker for many, many turns building your first mine.

Secondly, when discussing goody huts I feel obliged to remind you all that you are introducing movement range limitations into the game. And those are really going to cut down on peoples access to these. You'll no longer be able to build a scout and rush half the map for bonuses.

Finally think you should be extremely cautious when changing anything that fundamentally alters the balance of the early game as that period is easily the most difficult right now. We do not need anything to make it even more difficult. If anything the difficulty curve needs smoothing.

 

[<Nexus>]

There are plenty of various events that both give you small amounts of gold and that require small amounts of investment. And those are typically really powerful and/or devastating in the early age. Like say having a forest burn down or a mine collapse can be crippling if you've used your one and only worker for many, many turns building your first mine.

As Vokarya already stated: Those events can be (and have to be) changed so they don't happen before you have the chance collect some money. I see no problem here.

Secondly, when discussing goody huts I feel obliged to remind you all that you are introducing movement range limitations into the game. And those are really going to cut down on peoples access to these. You'll no longer be able to build a scout and rush half the map for bonuses.

Exactly! Now the game is far more balanced. You can't steel all the goodies from the AI - though I loved to do that too So no problem here either.

Finally think you should be extremely cautious when changing anything that fundamentally alters the balance of the early game as that period is easily the most difficult right now. We do not need anything to make it even more difficult. If anything the difficulty curve needs smoothing.

That could be healed by adding starting gold to either CIV4EraInfos or to CIV4HandicapInfo.


I don't say that we really need that change. I'm saying it can be done without breaking the game. IMO

 

[PPQ_Purple]

As Vokarya already stated: Those events can be (and have to be) changed so they don't happen before you have the chance collect some money. I see no problem here.

Is that not just going to strip content from the early game needlessly? I don't really see a point to that.

Exactly! Now the game is far more balanced. You can't steel all the goodies from the AI - though I loved to do that too So no problem here either.

Which is fine in its own right. But alters other things. Therefore I would be leery of introducing too many changes all at once without first testing them separately.

That could be healed by adding starting gold to either CIV4EraInfos or to CIV4HandicapInfo.

Thing is that only patches the problem. And not very well at that. And right now I do feel that there is a problem with the difficulty curve in general which needs to be addressed. As it stands, the game difficulty essentially peaks in the very early stages and than tapers off so that by the time you hit high medieval if you have played your cards right it becomes very difficult for the AI to dislodge you. If not, you might as well start over.

At least that's my experience with it. Now, I do play without revolutions and flexible difficulty. But still.

I don't say that we really need that change. I'm saying it can be done without breaking the game. IMO

And my reply to that is "maybe?" But do you really want to try it all at once in a big pile?

Like, maybe it's just me being a programmer. But I would not want to be the guy that has to balance test and fix the combination of movement limits, new civic mechanics, new gold mechanics and all the other stuff you mean to put in at once. I'd trickle those down incrementally over a long period of time. But again, maybe it is just me. I will accept to be compromised when it comes to these things on account of what you'd call a professional deformation.

 

[<Nexus>]

Is that not just going to strip content from the early game needlessly? I don't really see a point to that.

So-so... But not all early events have gold effects. And new ones could be added too. Ideas?

Which is fine in its own right. But alters other things. Therefore I would be leery of introducing too many changes all at once without first testing them separately.

ML is not mandatory. You can turn it off. So it can be viewed as beta-testing is in process.

And my reply to that is "maybe?" But do you really want to try it all at once in a big pile?

Still not as big of a change as trying an other mod, so yes.

Like, maybe it's just me being a programmer. But I would not want to be the guy that has to balance test and fix the combination of movement limits, new civic mechanics, new gold mechanics and all the other stuff you mean to put in at once. I'd trickle those down incrementally over a long period of time. But again, maybe it is just me. I will accept to be compromised when it comes to these things on account of what you'd call a professional deformation.

Your point of view is different from my but I think both are good. Two different tastes can be same good.

 

[Fozman]

Two things...

1. As long as I can turn this "early slider lock" option off, I don't care what you do. I fundamentally disagree with the ML option, but I shut it off and it doesn't bother me. The same would apply here.

2. And right now I do feel that there is a problem with the difficulty curve in general which needs to be addressed. As it stands, the game difficulty essentially peaks in the very early stages and than tapers off so that by the time you hit high medieval if you have played your cards right it becomes very difficult for the AI to dislodge you. If not, you might as well start over.

   I strongly agree with this. I recently increased to Monarch difficulty. It took me about 10 starts before I gained enough traction to survive past the Ancient Era. Between newly formed minor civs ganking me as soon as they appear, rival starting civs quickly settling 10 cities to my 2 or 3, and random Barbarian events spawning 6 strong enemies on my border... I realized I had to resort to drastic measures in order to combat these AI advantages. However, after this trial by fire period, it was like any other Noble or Prince game I've played... except I wasn't as far ahead.

 

[Sock Thing]

Would it be possible instead to add an actual tax slider to the game? If you could do that there would be several things you could do with it like having it cause cause additional the higher it is like an evil twin of the culture slider. I know some civics have this already but you could remove those to streamline them. you could also introduce some new buildings like Tax office which could give a gold bonus but cause additional the higher the tax slider is like other buildings which provide from the culture slider. Other ideas for it which I don't know if they are possible would be having certain civics like say free market have a hard limit on how high you can go on the tax slider. Or unlocking only parts of the tax slider at a time like say at trade you can have the tax slider at a maximum of 10% and then once you get currency you can have it at a maximum of 20% and so on.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Technically, that slider already exists - you can see it by opening the city-screen, it's underneath the other sliders. I've got genuinely no clue why it's not visible outside of it.