Telephone telepathy 'proved'

Brighteye said:
Foetal cells are guided by molecular signals. Proteins are helped to fold by chaperone proteins. One in particular has been in the (scientific) news recently because it's thought to be involved in Parkinson's.

Do me a favour and don't post the link. I haven't the energy to read it! :lol:

On cell determination, the mystery is still there. The question becomes: how do the chemical signal molecules 'know' where to go? Or how does each cell know which ones to make? It just moves the broken wheel to a different axle.

I just remembered something about experimental technique that's relevant here:

When we do an experiment, we often get results that are outside experimental error range. What happens to all of these results? They just get discarded in my experience. There must be an explanation for the anomalies, but no one bothers to look for it.
 
The paper on the 850 sample study is here.

The killer error is at the bottom: he has not done 850 experiments to produce his 42% result. An unknown number of people have conducted the experiment - as outlined by his website - and then submitted their results. We have no way of knowing exactly how many of these experiments have taken place, personally i'll bet it's rather more than 850, but people are more likely to report positives - a well known source of bias.

If you look at his 'online staring experiment' you will notice the same fatal flaw.

Conclusion: DEBUNKED.
 
brennan said:
The paper on the 850 sample study is here.

The killer error is at the bottom: he has not done 850 experiments to produce his 42% result. An unknown number of people have conducted the experiment - as outlined by his website - and then submitted their results.

Conclusion: DEBUNKED.

Nice work Brennan; you succeeded in picking a legitimate hole in the results :goodjob:

You succeeded where all the yanks failed; sometimes I wonder why we cleared North America for them.......... :lol:

There is the possibility that the unknown researchers simply lied. After all they are anonymous so why not? We do need a better experiment here......
 
Xenocrates said:
Insulting - yes, true also - yes :p You ever walked along a bus queue and heard the BS conversations that other people are having? It's the same in science labs. To the credit of OT we don't talk that kind of banality very often!

There's still a case for the involvement of proteins in inheritance. http://www.molgen.mpg.de/~ag_krobitsch/11260797.pdf#search=%22protein%20genetic%20inheritance%22
You've supported my point. Proteins were the fashion, then they weren't. Now they're coming into vogue again.

Who says it's the same in science labs? When did you last visit any of the labs here in Oxford and conduct a detailed trial of the attitude to results? Science labs do science, and try to avoid fakery.

Of course there's a case for proteins in inheritance. DNA is wrapped around histones, and histones can therefore alter how well DNA is read by binding strongly etc. Similarly DNA is not the only code; methyl groups on the DNA also add information. Nonetheless, the DNA is the primary messenger. This is a long distance from thinking that proteins actually contained the information.

Molecules do not know where to go; they diffuse from their production point. It is perfectly possible to design a system that automatically differentiates from a homogenous mass of cells. You simply need systems of messengers that inhibit production of others, or themselves, to set up differences in state between cells, and then you have the cells differentiate according to the state they're in.
 
Brighteye said:
Who says it's the same in science labs? When did you last visit any of the labs here in Oxford and conduct a detailed trial of the attitude to results? Science labs do science, and try to avoid fakery.

I preferred to hang around in Manchester; the home of Rutherford. The conversation deviated between girls, beer and football. Exactly as it does in pubs. Maybe your experience is different....

Brighteye said:
Of course there's a case for proteins in inheritance. DNA is wrapped around histones, and histones can therefore alter how well DNA is read by binding strongly etc. Similarly DNA is not the only code; methyl groups on the DNA also add information. Nonetheless, the DNA is the primary messenger. This is a long distance from thinking that proteins actually contained the information.

Molecules do not know where to go; they diffuse from their production point. It is perfectly possible to design a system that automatically differentiates from a homgenous mass of cells. You simply need systems of messengers that inhibit production of others, or themselves, to set up differences in state between cells, and then you have the cells differentiate according to the state they're in.

There are a few philosphical points here about the nature of information, which is a subject for another thread. I can't debate cell differentiation any more because your model (and my knowledge :) ) is incomplete. This isn't surprising since no one has really nailed down how it works. :goodjob: I'm no biologist (in fact I really don't like the subject to be honest), but my understanding is that your scheme requires a chemical system to produce the correct differentiation. The problem just changes to how that system is configured instead of how the cells actually differentiate.
 
In the lab most conversations are indeed not about the science itself. That's because they're a break from the writing and reading. We might discuss our last experiment, how the equipment broke again, watch out for that one etc.
When we discuss results we discuss them. When we get anomalies we think of reasons. Generally there are many possibilities, and these are mentioned in papers that have anomalies. These simple explanations are far more likely than strange new physics being at work, and so no-one looks for strange new physics.

As I understood it, your point about cell differentiation was that there had to be a mysterious force causing the initial development. This is not true: with a bit of time you can come up with a large number of ways of having a preprogrammed identical mass of cells that differentiate differently. Just because they start the same doesn't mean that they can't end up different; they might respond to each other, cells on the outside might receive diferent signals, cells close to the placenta might receive different signals... and so on.
There are far more plausible explanations than a mysterious force for which there is no evidence except this speculation.
 
Brighteye said:
In the lab most conversations are indeed not about the science itself. That's because they're a break from the writing and reading. We might discuss our last experiment, how the equipment broke again, watch out for that one etc.
When we discuss results we discuss them. When we get anomalies we think of reasons. Generally there are many possibilities, and these are mentioned in papers that have anomalies. These simple explanations are far more likely than strange new physics being at work, and so no-one looks for strange new physics.

As I understood it, your point about cell differentiation was that there had to be a mysterious force causing the initial development. This is not true, with a bit of time you can come up with a large number of ways of having a preprogrammed identical mass of cells that differentiate differently. Just because they start the same doesn't mean that they can't end up different; they might respond to each other, cells on the outside might receive diferent signals, cells close to the placenta might receive different signals... and so on.
There are far more plausible explanations than a mysterious force for which there is no evidence except this speculation.

I can't debate you on cell determination as my biology is as good as your badminton (takes a wild guess :mischief: ).

Now gravity is a different matter. There's a mysterious force if ever there was one. I realise that there have been some recent inroads made into it, but for a long time people had no clue how it worked, and even now we aren't sure. I'm not supporting anything more mysterious than gravity or quantum coupling. In fact quantum coupling is an even better example: two particles maybe miles apart instantaneously change state according to the state of the other. What causes that? Sheldrake proposes that this effect is at work during telepathy (IIRC - don't quote me on it). It's not quite as wild as it may appear. I know he's Cambridge and your Oxford, but give the guy a break will you :D Why should quantum effects such as this not occur in the brain and, for that matter, in cell determination too?

GL mate; what's your subject btw?
 
Quantum coupling requires the particles to be entangled first, and that's tricky when they're in different heads.
Sheldrake seems to propose 'a force' with no more explanation than that; at least none that is consistent with current scientific knowledge (that has more evidence in its favour than his experiments) and with itself.
In his paper he should consider what might be causing what he sees. He should try to understand how telepathy might work: he should suggest a mechanism which is not 'it's a mysterious force'.

The aim of science is to solve mysteries, not induce belief in them.

And if I told you my subject (within the broader field of physiology), you'd know who I am. I quite like internet anonymity for the time-being at least. So you'll just have to guess.
 
The original formulation of gravity included no explanation. I prefer scientists to push boundaries by tackling difficult and/or seditious questions. It wasn't so long back that they swore blind that GM genes wouldn't escape into the environment; now we find that we're swimming in them. There's an unhealthy streak of conservatism and blind faith in modern science that needs to be addressed (actually it's always been there). There's also the more serious question of big business biasing the experiments that are done and their resuilts. What put me off science as a career was a conversation with a quantum professor at univesity. I ventured that quantum physics disobeyed Occam's razor and should be double checked. It is rather complex after all. He haughtilly told me that the era of scientific progress was over and that quantum was the answer to everything. Wally. :mad: After that I became a dissident. :goodjob:

Maybe the coupling process (if there is one) is achieved by genetic connection, emotional connection (someone mentioned empathy) or something else explicable. I have no idea - we won't know unless we look and as far as I'm concerned it's as valid an area of research as any other.
 
I still don't get this point.

Yah, I'm aware of that. I mean, you called the discovery of the DNA basis of inheritance a "fashion in science." One can't really expect you to grasp the concept of variable parsimony.

Please do some actual science before engaging in critiques of it that only reveal your own ignorance. That's meant in the best possible way.
 
Pontiuth Pilate said:
Yah, I'm aware of that. I mean, you called the discovery of the DNA basis of inheritance a "fashion in science." One can't really expect you to grasp the concept of variable parsimony.

Please do some actual science before engaging in critiques of it that only reveal your own ignorance. That's meant in the best possible way.

You said that he introduced unecessary variables. The way that the experiment was conducted means that the family connection of the subjects couldn't have made any negative difference. It doesn't resolve the question of whether precognition or telepathy is responsible, but neither would your experiment (correct me if I'm wrong) I invited you to explain but instead I get this tirade of venom. What is this; National spite day? :lol:

The reason why proteins were the first choice for study of inheritance was because DNA was considered to be too unstable for the job. Every scientist bar a couple were working on proteins until Watson and Crick. Then they all jumped ship until it was realised that DNA couldn't be the whole story. Then, I think, sometime in the 1980's some of them began to look again at proteins. I already posted a link on protein inheritance; I assume it's still there and you can look for yourself. :goodjob: If that story doesn't scream "fashion" at you I don't know what will!

I have done a little science in the past as it happens........
 
The way that the experiment was conducted means that the family connection of the subjects couldn't have made any negative difference.

Yes, that's precisely the point! Now you're getting there!

We have absolutely no f'ing clue what difference it made, if any.

Therefore: why include it in the experiment? It is easier, and more elegant, to conduct a study where there is only ONE variable being studied. That way, if something happened, we know what caused it because there's only ONE variable being studied. That is the concept of variable parsimony.

I already posted a link on protein inheritance

Yes, and it talks about proteins which contain in their structure the necessary elements to conform other proteins to similar structures, i.e. prions. Prions aren't alive :D

Every scientist bar a couple were working on proteins until Watson and Crick.

Actually the credit for discovering the role of DNA goes to Hershey/Chase and MacLeod/Avery. Watson/Crick only hypothesized its structure.
 
If you weren't around, i already conceded to Brennus that there was a source of error in the experiment. Sheldrake can defend his own work next time. :D

My understanding of the DNA history (don't make me look through millions of words to dig up a link :cry: ) is that after Watson and Crick published their double helix, almost everyone got hypnotised by it and proteins were neglected. I wrote something about the history of evolution a few years ago and came across this. The paper on prions isn't the only evidence that proteins are now being studied more carefully. Isn't someone mapping them like the human genome project?

EDIT (forgot this point) I still don't get you variable point. How the blazes can we eliminate all potential relationships between the caller, the experimenters and the receiver? It could be anything, since we don't have a model for why this is happening (if it is)? The first step should be to demonstrate that something's going on and the second to nail down what and why. Sheldrake hasn't quite made the case that there is a phenomenon here yet. Like gravity; first we demonstrate that balls fall, and then we use diffeerent coloured, shaped, sized and 'massed' balls to find out more about what's going on.
 
Xenocrates said:
The original formulation of gravity included no explanation. I prefer scientists to push boundaries by tackling difficult and/or seditious questions. It wasn't so long back that they swore blind that GM genes wouldn't escape into the environment; now we find that we're swimming in them. There's an unhealthy streak of conservatism and blind faith in modern science that needs to be addressed (actually it's always been there). There's also the more serious question of big business biasing the experiments that are done and their results.

Maybe the coupling process (if there is one) is achieved by genetic connection, emotional connection (someone mentioned empathy) or something else explicable. I have no idea - we won't know unless we look and as far as I'm concerned it's as valid an area of research as any other.

The coupling process is currently well-defined by the theory that explains it, and no part of this theory suggests that coupling happens at long distance. If coupling is involved, we need a how (or a why).
The problem with tackling difficult questions is that they're not always the important ones. Repeating simple experiments to get simple results might well be very useful. It will still be science.
Scientists never swore blind that GM genes would not spread. There have been many of us who saw the problems and didn't accept the answers. The problem with blind faith in science is not that scientists have it, but that 'laymen' have it. You cannot have faith in science in the same way that you might accept every moral pronouncement your priest makes. Science is evidence based, not authority-based.
So people make press-releases saying that they're scientists and their crops will be safe. What's new? Should you accept it simply because they call themselves scientists? Of course not. A real scientist will expect some sort of explanation; they provided explanations, and these were torn apart. But people in government (or wherever) simply had blind faith in the claim that 'it's science'.
However, knowledge that science will eventually reach the correct conclusion is acceptable. When cientific theories are debunked, people think 'oh, science has failed', when it's science that has led to the debunking! Science has succeeded again! Science is a process, not a belief system. It works, but only on its own terms: importantly, these are empirical.
Conservatism is useful in science. Science requires fameworks of theories in order to work. If a theory has been tested and not disproven, one should be wary of proposing a replacement because of Occam's razor. It is only when a replacement is really needed that change is considered, at which point scientists move in bulk to the new opinion, because the weight of evidence has changed.
You are right that there are problems with the modern attitude to science, but your position has gone too far. Science is not wrong; we may be, but it gives us the highest chance of being right.
How can you complain about science and at the same time support the scientific investigation of 'phenomena'? Science is a vital tool in increasing our knowledge and understanding of the world. If people reach wrong conclusions, it is science that enabled them to make any conclusions at all, and it is science that will eventually show them what is right.
 
Parapsychology, garbage. I'll believe it when the whole scientific community proves it, and it appears in a journal like Nature or Science.
 
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