Terrain damage issues and possible extensions

[Koshling]

In my current (V26) game, I started just south of the northern polar regions. As a result much of the territory to the north of me is tundra, then permafrost, then ice. I have had fantastic success by beelining artic promotions for my hunters and cleaning up on the animal bounty in the frozen wastes. This works very well because there is little competition from the AI in that area (and because it's such a large area close to me).

So:

Issue 1

The AI doesn't hunt well in areas with a lot of damaging terrain (in V26 it at least knows to not get itself killed there, but that's about all).

Resolutions:

• I've been meaning to rework the promotion selection code for a while, and part of that was always intended to make the terrain promotions more attractive if you have large amounts of it close by. This has been on hold however, pending TB's promotion work which has been ongoing for some time now (I'll talk to him to fin out when that will be done so I can get on with this).
• The AI doesn't encourage (hunting and exploring) units with the necessary promotion(s) to hunt in those areas, it just doesn't stop it doing so. I plan to modify this to give an extra weight to actively heading for and exploiting those areas once it has the promotions for them. This should allow the AI to take the same advantage from it as I have been (relative lack of competition)

Issue 2:

A little later in the game, once barbarians start founding cities, several get founded in the tundra. Strangely, the barbarians born there don't seem well adapted and lack the necessary promotions to cope with it! The result is that every now and again a trickle of half-dead barbarian units make it south to my area for swift and merciful slaughter!

Resolutions:

• I propose that units built in a city whose vicinity contains damaging terrains have a chance of being created with the protective promotions automatically. The probability of this occurring would be proportional to the amount of that terrain in the city cross, with 100% being hit when about half of all the city's cross has the terrain in question. This would mean barbarians created in the tundra would have anti-tundra promotions automatically and thus would arrive to try to invade me hale and hearty!
• I would also propose that this apply to ALL cities (so player ones too), which adds a new strategic element (it becomes desirable to have a city in the difficult terrain (or on the edge of it at least) in order to get the hardened units).

Opinions...?

 

[bill2505]

bravo. people get used in hardships had nauraly small resistance against nature

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I will need to consider the affect of this and a similar set of promotions you may get if you have various Military civics active esp the education one.

 

[ls612]

I started in the same place in my SVN game (started after the Inflation Fix), just south of the Polar regions. I found the opposite of what you were experiencing, that the AI would give it's scouts and trackers Arctic whatever the name is I and II, and then explore the desolate regions. Only the other AIs near the pole did this though, the more southerly AI nations did not. I don't know if this is sheer dumb luck and happenstance or not, as I did not touch the Exploration routines last version.

 

[Nimek]

For me the idea of giving free promo depending of terrans in city vincinity is very good and realistic.

 

[Taxman66]

How about a building that gives the city the ability to build units with the local terrain promotion?

 

[Koshling]

How about a building that gives the city the ability to build units with the local terrain promotion?

I prefer automatic mostly because a building wouldn't help the barbarian (cities) that spawn there much since barbarians are not much for civic development ;-) (i.e. - they are very slow to build much aside from military). Of course it **could** be totally automatic for barbarians, and building-based for players, but I dont really see the need to add the complexity.

 

[Koshling]

I will need to consider the affect of this and a similar set of promotions you may get if you have various Military civics active esp the education one.

Redundant promotions in this case would not (IMO) matter really. Don't forget the free promotions will only go to the cities with a lo of bad terrain, so it won't be adding to core cities typically.

 

[LumenAngel]

• I propose that units built in a city whose vicinity contains damaging terrains have a chance of being created with the protective promotions automatically. The probability of this occurring would be proportional to the amount of that terrain in the city cross, with 100% being hit when about half of all the city's cross has the terrain in question. This would mean barbarians created in the tundra would have anti-tundra promotions automatically and thus would arrive to try to invade me hale and hearty!
• I would also propose that this apply to ALL cities (so player ones too), which adds a new strategic element (it becomes desirable to have a city in the difficult terrain (or on the edge of it at least) in order to get the hardened units).

The best is maybe a special promotion "Arctic born", "Benediction of desert", "Chosen of Volcanoes"... Given immunities to the type of terrains, possibility to pass through the type of terrains(for peaks, volcanoes, craters...) and maybe small bonus related to this terrain (double movement/defense/attack/...)
Only one per units, so a city near tundra and moutain will have a chance to have the arctic one OR the mountain one

 

[Nimek]

@koshling
someone dit it in militia mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335901

 

[Thunderbrd]

I love the ideas you've floated here Koshling. But I also think that some Cultures (that can only be developed in extreme terrains) should also bring some strategic benefits for their units AND to those terrain plots. For example, I'm thinking the Inuit Culture could bring with it a +1 food on Ice,Permafrost, and Tundra plots, etc.

That would work better once I get a future project underway, but I just say it to note that I've been considering things along similar lines. It would be best for the game design if all terrain types were roughly equalizable via these kinds of effects so that no one civ start is worse than another, just varying in flavor and strengths vs weaknesses.

You can't really control resource placement enough to completely balance things out but these ideas here would help.

 

[Nimek]

What do you think about the idea that terrain promotions will be only accessible in cites with given terrain. EX in reality how i can train my units to get hills or ice promotions when the city is located on flat desert. They dont even see in life snow and ice.

terrain promotions could be only accessible by city location or occasional promotion. It will give interesting strategic aspect. My people borne in the desert will have small chance to win with ex scandinavians on ice terrains.

Some futer tech like Virtual Reality or later can give access to all terrain promotions independent of city terrains. Your opinions?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't personally think the basic terrain promos should be limited in this manner. Troops can develop skill in the field to face what they encounter.

 

[Nimek]

I don't personally think the basic terrain promos should be limited in this manner. Troops can develop skill in the field to face what they encounter.

Occasional promotion represents this ability we can tweak it to give more offen terrain promos.

 

[Faustmouse]

I don't personally think the basic terrain promos should be limited in this manner. Troops can develop skill in the field to face what they encounter.

So the units should only be able to get this promo if they are in/near the correct terrain...
Or what about that: Units start with a terrainpromo as Koshling suggested and if a unit is in another terrain for a specific number of turns (or add a chance per turn?) it will also (or instead) get the promo of this terrain.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Actually, I thought that when terrain damage was introduced that cities built in damaging terrain would already give those promotions. I.E. don't we have this in the code already?

@koshling
someone dit it in militia mod
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335901

That is what I was talking about, however that mod does not do barbarian units and is only active under some civics which the barbarians don't have. Having said that I could always change it.

 

[Koshling]

Actually, I thought that when terrain damage was introduced that cities built in damaging terrain would already give those promotions. I.E. don't we have this in the code already?



That is what I was talking about, however that mod does not do barbarian units and is only active under some civics which the barbarians don't have. Having said that I could always change it.

Can you point me at what does this? Is it in python? If so is it easily extensible to the barbarians also?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Can you point me at what does this? Is it in python? If so is it easily extensible to the barbarians also?

The current code is python and iirc it should be easy enough to extend. I recycled it from FF or FfH. It is in my pythpn folder and is called InitMilitaryPromos.py

 

[IronClaymore]

The current code is python and iirc it should be easy enough to extend. I recycled it from FF or FfH. It is in my pythpn folder and is called InitMilitaryPromos.py

If you really want to extend the concept, you can also add or alter some civilizations to be more like the Illians (the ice worshiper guys) from FFH. It was mentioned before the idea having cultures gain extra food or other yields from cold terrain, as well as getting the terrain adaptation promotions automatically. If it was a civilization, they would have to be given greater weight to start off or develop in cold areas, otherwise what's the point? But since C2C has gotten away from civ-specific things, maybe a culture(s)? Inuits, northern russians, Tibet maybe? Barbarians could also get extra yields from marginal terrain automatically, because those dozens of polar cities should be a bigger threat.

Could mountaineer be added to the list of terrain-in-city free promotions as well? In some maps, it might be a massive gamebreaker if you can move armies over mountains early game, but if a hefty requirement (at least 8 peak plots or so in vicinity) and the usual probability was used, only the occasional unit would get it. Plus, you can already purchase mountaineer at a relatively low level if you beeline it.