TGOM 02 - The Grumpy Old Monk and the Ancient Crone go to Alpha Centauri

Take another look at Venerable Valley. A hospital there is :smoke: as the city will not get past 24fpt, yet even at pop8 it is making 19spt. Looks like a factory town to me.

In fact look at all the build orders, it is wartime after all.

The farm towns are great sources of combat settlers. Pick a town that has accumulated 30_35 shields and pop a settler. Use them to push the borders into enemy terrritory, preferably close enough to the home border that it will close it up yet close enough to a target town that artillery can shell and cavalry armies can reach. Oh, pop a settler out of Tyendaga, that will solve the happy problem and get another combat settler.

The technique I like with combat settlers is just to creep them forward under cover of artillery and an army, or lots of leg infantry. Spot the new town just inside the enemy border, build the town, then shell the target from there.

Starve the aliens out. And build workers in resisting towns. When the resistance ends cash rush the worker, reduces the alien population and the conversion risk.

Hammi has way too much money in his treasury, get it.

Delphi is easy pickings, get an army and some artillery over there, stat.

And with a little rail building at Delphi and all the spare cavalry and the armies you can end this war this turn.
 
Bede said:
Take another look at Venerable Valley. A hospital there is :smoke: as the city will not get past 24fpt, yet even at pop8 it is making 19spt. Looks like a factory town to me.
You're right. :blush:

In fact look at all the build orders, it is wartime after all.
Um, I'd been thinking about ending the war, but after reading the rest of your suggestions, I took a look at the save and Delphi looks easier now. (Why don't I see these things myself?) I'd sure like to get Athens with Sun Tsu in it, but I'll see how that looks if I get that far. And even after the war with Greece ends, I suppose we'll need to be prepared for an eventual fight with Hammi, huh?

Here I was originally thinking that building an SS was gonna be a peaceful game. :hmm: :p
 
If we did it right we could get a double win - conquest and space on the same turn. But I really would rather stop warmongering once we control our continent, amphibious assaults require the building of a navy...
 
gmaharriet said:
I'd sure like to get Athens with Sun Tsu in it, but I'll see how that looks if I get that far.
Oh do tell... what are the economic implications of that wonder? And what are the implications in this game? :mischief:
Here I was originally thinking that building an SS was gonna be a peaceful game. :hmm: :p
I could be wrong, but I think Charis pulled off the only game that didn't involve at least a little warmongering. ;)
General Mayhem said:
If we did it right we could get a double win - conquest and space on the same turn.
IIRC, Team Bugs pulled exactly that trick in the very first SGOTM. It was a most stylish victory. They didn't get the gold, but they certainly got the accolades for style points. Of course... they parked some Modern Armor outside the capitol of the last AI city standing on the turn before the spaceship launch...

...but that isn't exactly the victory goal of this game, now is it? :p (Focus, mon general, focus...)

<scout losing focus>
Speaking of creative SG endings... Despite the fact that this game got me initiated into the Benevolent and Protective Order of the Wooden Spoon, I have an awfully fond memory of "Mistfit's Gambit", which first came to light in the 4th post on this page. (The variant was to win a diplomatic victory, without building the U.N.)
</scout losing focus>

On another note... a couple of team members have suggested a tutuorial for some of the warmongering stuff. If three players (team members or lurkers) would like for me to post something along those lines, send me a PM. In that PM, please tell me what you're having trouble getting your mind around, and I'll put something together and post it ...in this thread if it's okay with Bede. Or we could take it to the Warmongering 101 thread. Since I started it, we can spam it up all we care to. :D (See Part 3 for a some Combined Arms pointers that might help in this game...)
 
Actually there is a more important building than SunT for our purposes....

Oddly enough I am running a SP game as the Dutch looking for a fast launch (yeah, I keep trying different combinations) and have made it to the beginning of the IA without a single war war except some barbarian whacking. And, yes, scout, barbarians are set at "raging". For some obscure reason I get a warm and fuzzy feeling watching all those little guys running around the map, complettely out of control (kinda like watching the admiral and his tanks). So it is possible to play with no warfare, you just need the resource breaks.

That is really the reason for warfare, resources and lebensraum, and when you have an AGRI nation with an early granary you can out expand the AI without warfare as long as you start a settler farm and keep it running. And if you can get the resources you need at the time you need them by settlement, then you don't have to go to war.

Navies can be fun but the planning can be stressful.
 
@ grumpy old farts, what I really think u need here is a discussion on mobilization. where the hell are the tanks? I can't seem to find them?<losing focus>
 
scoutsout said:
Oh do tell... what are the economic implications of that wonder? And what are the implications in this game?
In this game we'd save the cost of maintaining the rax we already have and it could be very useful if we have to fight the Babs later, which seems likely.

On another note... a couple of team members have suggested a tutuorial for some of the warmongering stuff. If three players (team members or lurkers) would like for me to post something along those lines, send me a PM. In that PM, please tell me what you're having trouble getting your mind around, and I'll put something together and post it ...in this thread if it's okay with Bede. Or we could take it to the Warmongering 101 thread. Since I started it, we can spam it up all we care to. :D (See Part 3 for a some Combined Arms pointers that might help in this game...)
I can always use more help on warmongering, and I didn't put it in a PM because everybody knows how timid I am...it's no secret...but I do get better as I get more experience.

Bede said:
Actually there is a more important building than SunT for our purposes....
Gee, ya want I should give it back to the Greeks now after all the trouble I went to in capturing Athens? :hmm: I can't do that anyway, because there are no Greeks left to give it to. :smug:

I hope it's ok to do a second post, because I'll get mixed up if this one gets too long.
 
IIRC one of the last Greek towns has Bach's cathedral in it...

Way to go gmH, keep up the pressure.
 
OK, I'm mostly through with turn 8. The Greeks are history, and we have Sun Tzu's, Hanging Gardens and Bach's. We have a new town S of Pharsallos named Dye City and our citizens are now very happy. ;) Also another town between Delphi and Athens to widen our borders there quickly so the Babs don't infill. (We got Delphi and Athens before I could settle them to get closer to the enemy because of all the jungle.)

I'll have 2 more settlers ready next turn and I have a few worker turns left if I need to start roads to get to where they should build towns, but I'm terrible at town placement. There are several possible locations, so I'm asking advice (again!). Here is a pic of our southern empire at 1335 ad. BTW, all those Babs seem to be heading for home.
1335ad_So_Territory.JPG


Also, I forgot to get Hammi's gold. (too focused on the war :( ) He now is willing to empty his treasury of 1020g, plus 28gpt and his WM for Combustion. I'd like the gold, but would that make him too dangerous to us?

Flight now in 1 with a kitty of 534g and +218. We are also building The Pentagon, Intelligence Agency and an army, any of which could be changed. What direction do we want to go next?

Here's the save and I'm going to take a break for the rest of the evening. :p
 
Nice turn, please leave me at least some of Hammi:p
 
Combustion doesn't do anything for Hammi other than upgrade his boats (if he has any) and I always always take the money if it's out there. And he has no oil that I can find.....so no airplanes or tanks for him :D

Bach's Cathedral and the tourist income from the Gardens will be of greater value to us than SunT's AofW, IMHO.

Looks like time to take a short breather and consolidate. Plant some more towns in the Greek jungles then see where we are. As for town placement just cram them in but with a view towards pushing into Bablyon.
 
gmaharriet said:
In this game we'd save the cost of maintaining the rax we already have and it could be very useful if we have to fight the Babs later, which seems likely.
Isn't it also true that we can sell back all the barracks we already built?

As for selling Combustion, just make sure to sell to Persia too if he doesn't already have it (didn't check the save) and it looks like he'd buy it from Hammi. If Bede is right that Hammi doesn't have any oil (and I'm sure he is), keep in mind that one of the other AIs (Shaka IIRC) has two in his borders. Perhaps an embargo would be in order once Shaka or whoever can see his oil (assuming Hammi is still around by then).

I completely agree that there is no need to warmonger once we have control of our continent. And I, for one, am not in a huge hurry to start a fight with Hammi. Of course, if we have both planes and tanks and he has neither, that seems like a good window. The only reason I declared on Alex when I did was to grab his dyes before Hammi did, and Hammi beat me to Sparta anyway (thankfully Harriet saved the day in that regard).

Between Bach's, detting dyes back, and the end of the war, we should have WLTK Days galore. And speaking of wonders we inherited from Alex, where does tourism income show up -- in the city screen?

Edit: One note on new cities -- go ahead and grab that spot NE of Zariqum before we end up with another Persian outpost. Which reminds me, when we talk about controlling our continent, what does that mean for Dariush Kabir?

Also, I just noticed a hospital about to finish in Mayhem City. When I considered a hospital there, I thought it didn't make sense because there wasn't enough food potential in the middle of all those plains. In fact, I didn't do the math, but I wonder if it would make MC more productive to mine more of those watered plains even if it starves down a little bit.
 
I won't finish playing this until tonight, but all input is helpful in thinking through how to continue at this point.
eotinb said:
Isn't it also true that we can sell back all the barracks we already built?
Maybe I'm overly cautious, but Athens is very close to the Babs. If there's any chance they could grab it and we'd sold ours off, we'd have no rax at all. OTOH, maybe I should just garrison plenty of troops there...I'm not sure.

eotinb said:
As for selling Combustion, just make sure to sell to Persia too if he doesn't already have it (didn't check the save) and it looks like he'd buy it from Hammi.

I completely agree that there is no need to warmonger once we have control of our continent. And I, for one, am not in a huge hurry to start a fight with Hammi. Of course, if we have both planes and tanks and he has neither, that seems like a good window.
Good idea on selling to Persia too! I'm not inclined to start a fight with Hammi now either, but I wonder how much cultural pressure he'll exert on our southern cities now. I'd hate to see them flip. Again, maybe garrisons are the answer, but I don't do enough warmongering to have a good idea on this.

Edit: One note on new cities -- go ahead and grab that spot NE of Zariqum before we end up with another Persian outpost. Which reminds me, when we talk about controlling our continent, what does that mean for Dariush Kabir?

Also, I just noticed a hospital about to finish in Mayhem City. When I considered a hospital there, I thought it didn't make sense because there wasn't enough food potential in the middle of all those plains. In fact, I didn't do the math, but I wonder if it would make MC more productive to mine more of those watered plains even if it starves down a little bit.
Interesting comments, Brad. Maybe Dariush Kabir will flip? If not, we may have Persia invading, and that would be their toehold.

I'm not sure about the hospital in Mayhem City...it can still be changed. I don't have a strong opinion on that, and I often get stuck on what direction to go next in the middle of a game. Bede?
 
@gmH, do the math, if the city will get past 30fpt than a hospital will pay for itself. If it won't then it won't, so dig lots of mines and go for a factory instead. Greater than pop12 outside the first or second ring are just happiness nuisances anyway.

You doin' just fine, focus on our goal (Hiawatha wants to trade his canoe for a spaceship) so what actions will get that goal most effciently?

And remember - gold is king - not cash in the kitty but cash flow.
 
Preturn - 1295ad Will form Army with MGL Cornplanter next turn. All healthy cavs were out in the field, so I upgraded 3 MW's to cavs. Will add to army next turn. Change 23 scientists to taxmen and still get Combustion in 3 with +122gpt. (tried for all scientists to get it in 2, but couldn't.)

IT - Zulu's demand silks and we don't need another war...ok. Trade Atomic Theory for Commie and WM. Also trade Steel for Espionage. Bab ships shell Pharsalos. America and Greece sign peace. Rifle at Zarquiem kills cav on defense from city. the people want to build the Intelligence Agency. Mayhem City cav -> infantry. Troy resistance ends.Asyut settler-> arty, Tyendanaga arty -> arty. New room and shrubbery for our Palace.

1. 1300ad - Hire taxman in Troy. Attack and take Argos, losing 1 cav, 1 redlined. Fill army. Move reinforcements to Pharsalos, Zarquium and Ephasus, railing closer to the front.

IT - Abe wants ROP and MPP. Nope and he has nothing to trade. Zulus declare on Abe! Bab ships shell Pharsalos...nice of them to help us. Greeks land LB near Abydos. Sallie infantry -> infantry, Bedeville uni -> heroic epic, Smelly infantry -> infantry.

2. 1305 - Rifle and LB approach Thessalonica, fire 1 arty knocking 2hp off rifle...I think garrison is strong enough to hold. Take Ephasus with no losses, but some injuries. Capture Pharsalos. Rail to area near Abydos where LB is, send infantry to cover and kill with army. Attack Zarquium and capture with no losses, one injury and capture one slave. Combustion next turn with scientists tuned so that there is no overrun.

IT - Bab boats sail away. Greek units move around, but don't attack. Combustion -> Flight in 7 at 90% with 915 in the kitty and +122gpt. Harriet Bay uni -> cav, Mayhem city infantry -> infantry, Niagra Falls aqua -> lib. Resistance ends in Thessalonica. Waystation settler -> court (not sure what to do with the settlers.)

3. 1310 - Greek units are scattered in the west, so rail to get units close to them. Kill 1 rifle at Thessalonica. Bombard and attack 2 LB's at Niagara Falls and get an MGL, Tecumpsah. :D Kill another LB, but no promotion. There are 3 Greek cities left in the N/W and 2 in the south. Athens is now pop 1 and Delphi is pop 3, and I imagine the Babs will soon swallow them up. Make another cav army with Tecumpsah.

IT - Babs want ROP and MPP. Nope. The people want to build the Pentagon. Sallie infantry -> infantry, Clever Spgs uni -> bank, Smelly infantry -> arty (because I think we need more), Byblos -> court, Tyendanaga arty -> arty, Larsa harbor -> aqua, Cattaraugus harbor -> arty

4. 1315 - Attack Mycenae, cav promotes to elite, take Mycenae with no losses. Zulu cav must have been dropped next to Rhodes from a boat and we'll have competition. Move forces next to Eretria, but not enough arty to weaken sufficiently. I'll wait until next turn. Found Akwasasne N/W of Niagara Falls -> harbor. MM scientists to knock a turn off Flight, now due in 5 at +62.

IT - Zulu cav attacks Rhodes and is redlined. America and Persia sign peace. LB from Rhodes kills Zulu cav. Oswego uni -> factory, Mayhem City infantry -> hospital, El Amarna court -> market, Kiohero aqua -> market

5. 1320 - Attack and take Eretria losing 1 cav. Attack and take Rhodes with no losses. Found Kahnawake in south next to Zarquium -> temple...I think I should have been closer to Argos to fill Greek culture gap. :( 2 Bab infantry moved to mountain in Argos' border on the IT...looks like trouble so I move some cannon and units back next to Argos.

IT - Sallie infantry -> bank, Heroic Epic completes in Bedeville -> Intel Agency, Harriet Bay cav -> stock exchange. Resistance ends in Pharsalos. Eotin Bay factory -> bank, Smelly arty -> bank, Cronetown factory -> stock exchange. Tyendanaga riots due to WW, so hire clown. Caughnawaga uni - bank. Resistance ends several places, but too fast to read where. Hire cop in Kiohero. Bab infantry who were near Argo seem to be heading toward Delphi. Change VV from hospital to factory. Change Tyendanaga from arty to settler, Farm4 from arty to settler, Clever Spgs from bank to army, and Sallie to Pentagon.

6. 1325 Rail tile S of Oka, which is close enough for arty to reach Delphi. Move army and cavs next to Delphi and 1-move units to Oka. Bombard Delphi and take it with no injuries and get 3 slaves and start worker build. Rail tile S of Delphi and move troops, arty and workers there. Move arty and infantry close enough to shell Athens and move army and cavs next to Delphi. Cross my fingers and hit enter.

IT - Persia declares on America. Brave Greek LB's attack Bab infantry and lose. Tyendanaga settler -> arty, Farm4 settler -> arty

7. 1330 - Bombard Athens defended by 3 rifles and a LB. kill rifles, 3 cavs retreat, 1 promoted to elite. We take Delphi with Sun Tzu's, Hanging Gardens and Bach's, and the Greeks exist no more. Found Chondote between Delphi and Athens to expand our border toward the Babs -> lib. Found Dye City S of Pharssalos to capture dyes -> lib. Change Farm3 to settler to fill in some ex-Greek territory.

IT - Babs all head toward home. Farm 3 settler -> arty

8. 1335 Change Tyendenaga to another settler, Mayhem City from hospital to stock exchange. Flight in 1 and MM to +218gpt. Trade Combustion to Hammi for 1020g, 28gpt and WM...then to Persia for 110g and 33gpt.

IT - Babs continue homeward. Combustion -> Mass Prod at 90% in 5 turns at +193. Foreign Advisor says our military is weak to the Babs. Tyendanaga settler -> stock exchange

9. 1340 - Move settlers into place for jungle cities. workers railing, cash rush workers in some new cities, upgraded cannons to arties. Notice Babs have established a town S/E of Dye City and touching our borders.

IT - Redlined American cav moves out of Dariush Kabir toward Niagara Falls (a battle going on?) Delphi worker -> lib, Mayhem stock exchange -> bomber, Eotin Bay bank -> stock exchange, Smelly bank -> stock exchange, Napa Valley uni -> aqua, Ephesus worker -> lib, Rhodes worker -> harbor.

10. 1345 - Found Jungle Madness S of Hiawatha's -> lib. Found Other Dyes E of Sparta -> lib. workers railing. very quiet.

We have a LOT of temples and libs building which the next player may want to change. Our territory is very peaceful right now. My 10 turns ended on 1345 ad, but I think it was off to start as I got it at 1295 ad. Some family is dropping by, so I'm not going to play an 11th turn. This seems like a good time for us to discuss whether we want to build quietly for awhile or go after the Babs.

I didn't take a territory pic, as not much has changed, but I did take one of the southern area with our new towns and the Bab town near Dye City. Several other pics to follow in next post.
 
We get a leader
1310_Cav_Leader.JPG

Northwest Greece taken
1320_NW_Greeks_Taken.JPG

Delphi captured
1325ad_Capture_Delphi.JPG

Athens captured
1330_Capture_Athens.JPG

The Greeks are gone.
1330ad_GreeksDestroyed.JPG

Combustion Trade to Hammi
1335ad_Hammi_Combustion.JPG

Combustion Trade to Persia
1335ad_Persia_Combustion.JPG

New Towns in South
1345ad_New_So_Towns.JPG

Western Penninsula with American Cav Near Niagara Falls
1345ad_West_Penninsula.JPG
 
:goodjob: Bach's is going to be a huge advantage in managing the unruly.

Might as well build some bombers and deal with Hammi when the payments run out. Or do we ally with Amurrica, remove the Persians from the neighborhood of Oil Springs then jsut sit tight and wait to see what develops?
 
Obligatory roster check

The General - where do we go from here? lead the way
cleverhandle
Bede - got it and played
eotinb - welcome back, and came out swinging
gmharriet - made a castrato out of Alex who is now singing soprano in the cathedral choir
 
Well, we've got about 18 turns on a gpt deal with Persia, so can't ally with Abe against them. Bab army is strong, so I'm thinking we should build enough bombers and (later) tanks to go after him.

Eotinb had suggested settling another town in the east near Zarqium to prevent the Persians from settling there. I didn't because our borders are pretty well expanded and don't think there's quite enough room for them, but with a couple more settlers, I think we should fill in that area. I founded the jungle towns to stay close to the Babs in the event one of our towns in that area should flip. We need a whole LOT of worker turns to finish developing what we have...roads to build and jungles to chop and maybe turn into more science farms.

So...if I were just playing on solo, I'd make bombers and and do some quiet building. Fomenting war between the Babs and any civ on the other continent would be nice to weaken all of them, though I don't know how to do that...maybe gift the Other Dye city to Persia (or Abe or Shaka) right near Bab territory??? or is that idea :smoke: ? I've never tried to start a "let's you and them fight" war before.
 
I have the save, will hopefully be able to do something with it tomorrow.

I wish we hadn't made a gpt deal with hammi, because I was hoping to be able to start something with him around the middle of my turnset.

Also, one minor gripe about the save naming, please name it as something like TGOM2 instead of the default civ3 name, this can cause confusion if you already have a save of that name in your saves directory.
 
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