Thanks to Barbatos, I finally used the #$&! world editor

[MagisterCultuum]

I still prefer the benefit of costing the Barbarian State some traits, and giving them enough traits to make them almost insuperable otherwise. Also, the barbs should have more types of units they can build. I would love to see some arcane/summoner-trait boosted barbarian arcane units showing up late in the game if you don't manage to eliminate Barbatos (um..why cant the barbs build adepts? Of course it would fit better if the units were still called which doctor/shaman, etc), plus Aggressive/Charismatic/Raiders boosted barbs while still under Orthus's rule.

Now that I think of it though, allowing the Sepulcher to allow any arcane unit on the tile to cast Lich would be really cool. This could work kinda like how any angels can be sacrificed on the Pyre of the Seraphic. I don't think this would be overpowered since liches don't start with sorcery, summoning, or any levels of channeling, and since there is a limit to how many liches you can own at once (although I think this limit should be increased). This would let you pick whether you want a normal Archmage-Lich or a Summoner-Lich (like Barbatos himself was). If this idea is implemented, I hope a new death III sorcery spell is added (either to replace Lich, or better yet in addition to it). Actually, I hope a new Death III (and Spirit III) sorcery spells are added anyway; I'm not a fan of spells that a unit (or worse yet, an empire) can only only use once.

 

[xienwolf]

Main problem with just using the strat of invisible units, or countering magic with magic is that people's complaint is that he is too strong EARLY in the game. All of your strat ideas require LATE game mechanics/units mostly.

 

[smurven]

Could always capture a spider and use that spider to kill him.

 

[zxcvbnm]

If this idea is implemented, I hope a new death III sorcery spell is added (either to replace Lich, or better yet in addition to it). Actually, I hope a new Death III (and Spirit III) sorcery spells are added anyway; I'm not a fan of spells that a unit (or worse yet, an empire) can only only use once.

How about life III, it resurrects the civ's hero, no much use for that in the average game?

 

[wilboman]

Well, that depends on if you put your hero in the line of fire or not.

 

[Caradoc]

Could always capture a spider and use that spider to kill him.

How would that work? Doesn't he heal up between attacks?

 

[mipe]

... first ffh game for long time, and i lose in turn 3. why you may ask? broken selpucher (too hard to write...) and barbatos was just outside of my initial borders. on turn 2, barbatos summoned 2 earth elementals and both came one tile away from my city, and on turn 3 they both attacked against my 1 warrior..

 

[TravellingHat]

That can be annoying. Just starting a new game last night, my scout climbed the hill next to my chosen settling spot, and saw the Sepulchre the other side. Dumped the game and restarted. Meh - I'd rather find out immediately than start getting into it.

On a side note: does anyone know how I can re-enable the map regen feature?

 

[Grey Fox]

@mipe: Thats why your settler has 4 moves and watchtower sight range.
And btw, I don't want to think about white balls...

 

[TravellingHat]

It's true your settler does have good movement and vision range, but it's just sod's law that you find something like this the turn after you've just settled Such is life.

 

[ChaoticWanderer]

Best way to kill him is too have a hero thats all the way powered up then you crush himn like an undead bug. i only fought him once took Valin with 100% attack and hero strength 2 he made quick work of the summoner

 

[wilboman]

But again, the problem is that that isn't possible until you're rather far into the game.

 

[TravellingHat]

If he's close by your territory and blocking expansion, waiting for a hero may not be an option. You may also find, depending on your civ, that your hero isn't tough enough to survive the summons, let alone take out the lich afterwards. Of course, if your hero does cop it, you can always build the Shrine of Champion and recruit some units to zerg him.

As already suggested, captured spiders may do the trick, since they can approach invisibly and don't have to worry about those powerful summons. You want to be sure you can finish him off though, so either send several spiders, or get them promoted up to Shelob-like levels.

If lacking spiders, then like any unit he can be zerged. Speed is the key here, as you want to hit him with as many units as possible, and any of units that have to deal with his summons first will almost certainly die. Hunters promoted for extra movement are probably the key here, to tackle him early.

If you're really lucky, and he's close enough to the coast, you might be able to sail up a couple of fireball mages or someone like Hemah and blast him from the safety of your ships. Of course, if you have sorcery, it may be you're approaching the levels where he's less of a problem anyway.

There are ways and means, but having said that, if you find him right next to you almost from the word go, you may find that game an exercise in frustration, rather than an entertaining diversion. Of course, some people actually like that kind of uphill struggle. Horses for courses.

 

[wilboman]

I've got a game like that going now. But I've just decided to move in all other directions and leave him alone for a while. He's basically occupying the space that would have been occupied by an enemy civ he killed early on, so the difference is marginal. Planning to have a go as Hyborem later on anyway, so maybe I'll just not kill him until right before I summon the demon lord. Loads of luverly free space beside my old friend isn't so bad.

 

[TravellingHat]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I had him near my starting location in a hotseat game, though luckily not in insta-whacking distance. I just had to settle round him until some of my heroes (Grigori) were up to the job of removing him, and I sent in a few good hunters first which I lost (better them than my heroes, though). It was a bit of a pain, as my empire was geographically a bit more stretched than I'd want. Maintenance and logistics were a problem, as I was growing into a long thin empire with no safe heartlands.

However, now he's out of the way he's left a pristine site which I've settled, in so doing gaining uncontested control of the south of my continent. Just as well really, as a Clan army of wolf riders have just emerged from the jungle and invaded. Oh Sheelba, you silly, silly girl.

 

[White Elk]

@mipe: Thats why your settler has 4 moves and watchtower sight range.

This definitely helps but settler can now no longer see over hills or through trees and as a result I was once stomped by Barbatos summons before I even had a chance to discover him.

I like Barbatos I think he is a fun adversary who adds interesting elements to some games. But I'm with those who think he is overpowered in the early game. Now I wouldn't want him to be easily defeated. I would just prefer if his summons weren't so darn powerful. Actually, for me its really their movement that I think is too powerful. Twinsummons I think is good since he does need protection. But their ability to travel 9 tiles seems too much to me.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It has already been stated that in Shadow he will initially only be able to conjure lesser summons, but will gain free xp and eventually reach his full strength, or more. I think that is a good idea, lets see how it works.

I'm especially liking th way I modded it, where he has lesser summons but is a hero. Allowing any living arcane unit in the sepulcher to cast lichdom is fun too, especially once you've given liches more starting promotions (I believe they are supposed to get combat1 and extension 1 for free, but don't. When I found this out, I was so upset that I made them start with combat 1-4 and extension 1)

 

[blueparrot1966]

Are you supposed to get anything when you off Barbatos? I recall getting a gold reward when I killed Acheron in earlier versions, Didn't see it in .025. But Orthus' Axe is still there.

It'd be great to see some reward besides just the xp and the removal of the threat when you take down "specials" like that. Just a promotion for the unit that ganks them, or something like a shield to go along with that axe...

 

[vorshlumpf]

He is located on a death mana node.

 

[blueparrot1966]

True, and if you care to, you can take over a substantial barb city when you off Acheron. But the Axe of Orthus is a cool little perk, and I'd like to see more stuff like that.

A good example- anyone who's played the Age of Ice scenario probably knows about the Stag, and a choice/reward situation. I just dig things like that...