That's it - Liberty is complete utter worthless trash

Actually plenty of GoTM are won with liberty. For example some recent one such as #122 was Acken's liberty SV win with Egypt. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=558555

You just need to know how to play liberty game correctly.

most of the very early wins are won with liberty, the 200+ turn ones mostly with tradition. The reason for that is simple:

A civ game goes through the following phases (though obviously they overlap)
Growth (pop, food per turn) - science - production / win condition.
Growing a citizen that is going to be in your game for 150 turns is super valuable. Growing a citizen 50 turns before your projected victory date while your armies are just leaving home is rather worthless.

In short games, the growth phase is very short (and the science phase sometimes even absent, like in 129 that seems to have a T93 winner) and the real goodies from tradition come around turn 60-90. They are useless if you are already in or near your production/win condition phase. The settler/worker from liberty however are valuable in those games.

In games with long growth phases, the bonusses from tradition come to their right while the liberty ones are a bit mediocre due to being too late. (building a monument instead of scout first is a real costly investment. And even then, you would prefer to build your settler earlier than liberty will give it to you)

I see the Acken game you link to was a 221 turn game though. He was able to build 7 cities liberty.
Im most interested to see what will win GOTM130 as we had a little liberty vs tradition discussion there in the announcement thread. :)
 
Actually plenty of GoTM are won with liberty. For example some recent one such as #122 was Acken's liberty SV win with Egypt. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=558555

You just need to know how to play liberty game correctly.

Difficulty was prince. A lot of people built several early wonders. The higher up the difficulty, the less beneficial liberty becomes.
 
Indeed. My guess is you see the liberty wins mostly in the mid month low difficulty games. They are most likely to be the short games and if they are not, they are the ones where you might have the chance to expand enough for liberty to be good. 7 cities is increasingly rare as you go up in difficulty level.
 
Indeed. My guess is you see the liberty wins mostly in the mid month low difficulty games. They are most likely to be the short games and if they are not, they are the ones where you might have the chance to expand enough for liberty to be good. 7 cities is increasingly rare as you go up in difficulty level.

What I have seen and experienced has been that liberty is fantastic for getting every good city you want out and planted before anyone else can claim those spots. It stinks from turn 70-200, but if you treat those 7-10 cities like you would a nice 4 cities tradition empire (Which only the best can pull off properly) and work proper tiles, fill out other social policies, get lots of farms, and do what you can to make up for the lack of 15% growth, happiness problems, etc. etc. etc. then from turn 200 on up the larger, properly built empire will surpass the smaller, properly built empire. That last part is a giant gamble, but the first part (Pre-turn 70) is where liberty really shines.

No other policy offers a free settler and then double-speed settlers. You can literally build twice as many settlers after you take collective rule as a tradition player. Their best policies don't kick in until turn 50 on standard when you take Monarchy, Landed Elite, and the amazing finisher. Free monuments are nice, but not nearly as good as 2 free food plus 10% growth, or half unhappiness in capital, or 15% growth and free aqueducts. Oligarchy and aristocracy really suck, on so many levels, I don't think anyone can really defend those policies. Regarding the good policies, they need time to move to get you the buffs you need. So its not until around turn 70ish when things start really moving with tradition.

Liberty dies off here, because 1 happiness per city connection sucks and 33% less policy cost just evens things out. 1 hammer per city also sucks, the only thing that lasts long term with liberty is the faster worker improvement, but that only helps if you build the pyramids. I personally think hanging gardens is a better wonder, 6 food that early is great (TOA is better long term, I think its placement on the tech tree stinks personally but it stacks wonderfully with tradition finisher if you can obtain it somehow). Anyways, the only way to recover is to play well until your skillfully placed cities can catch up to the faster growing tradition cities. 1 extra hammer per city looks good math-wise, but higher population means you can work more mines so that point is defeated when the map gets in the way. The map and the neighbors are the real deciding factor here, liberty doesn't work when you only have room for 2 cities.

With Liberty, you have to start building settlers right before you get collective rule and send them right up in your neighbor's face. Then back-fill the spots with later settlers that are in between the first cities and the new ones. Once that is done, focus on defense, happiness, and growth. It takes more skill, because the AI is peeved you forward-settled them and will send armies of death to take your land. Build walls, build crossbows, and enjoy the show. Happiness is always my biggest problem, I can never get the jerks to trade me enough luxuries even AFTER I build coliseums. Once ideologies kick in, happiness explodes but its a painful uphill battle from turn 70-200. Its easy to defend 4 cities, and the AI could care less about your pitiful empire even with a 0 defense score. Defending 8 is a challenge, but if those 8 can survive, they can grow as tall or taller than many 4 city tradition empires and victory comes quicker (Supposedly). It's so difficult to determine which is faster though because each game is so different.
 
I like hanging gardens but prefer pyramids probably just because I prefer liberty. And ToA is ridiculously good with liberty, far better than it is on tradition. It lets you grow your city planting on a cow and working a sheep or other useful things like that.
People keep commenting about other conversations elsewhere in other threads and such about a lot of resurgence in this conversation lately, it makes me quite glad, I remember a year or a couple years ago everyone apparently decided liberty is cancer and tradition is the only way to win. I'm glad the discussion is apparently becoming popular again, I think it's an important topic of debate.
Also, this GOTM competitive team thing sounds very interesting, it may give me motivation on single player again. I am a bit rusty on said game mode but I'd probably be interested.
 
AI expands slower on lower difficulty games, therefore it is much easier to get red modifier from expanding too quickly for liberty. In my experience it will almost always lead to war but then again low difficulty AI are easy to beat and it is also easy to take their lux in peace deals. I agree that on deity in particular it is harder to set up a liberty game, but then again AI are more likely to have lux connected and available even if you have to pay a lot to get it connected first, but usually 9gpt is enough for subsequent deals.
 
Cool! I checked out the GOTM threads! Wish I'd heard about them sooner, but I'm kinda a loner player. A lot of my strategies and playstyle is self-taught from experiments though I've picked up some good tips from a few things I've seen on here. Maybe I'll try one of my experimental builds on the next month's GOTM and see how it compares! I know my strats always beat immortal.

Thanks for the links guys! :)

As I said earlier, I'm not the kind of player where finish time is the most important thing in the world to me. Around the modern era I start thinking about optimal pathing and the quickest way to win the game but before then I just like to have fun and see what happens and respond. I play civ as a history simulation trying to imagine being in there and immerse myself in the current age. Usually what I'm going for is building the most powerful empire possible. Tech is a part of this, but I continue to acquire new land late into the game and build up new cities because I love building infrastructure. It's one of my favorite parts of the game. A couple games ago as immortal/Aztecs with a tradition/liberty mix I had so many backstabs from doing that on a small pangaea, It was amazing! Most fun I've had in a while. :) Pulled a random cultural VC on accident after I noticed I had a good chance in the modern. That seems to happen more and more if you get the tech lead and get out fast archaeologists which I do every game since I like collecting artifacts. It just feels fun. The AI should really be better at stopping the VC, more cautious with open borders, etc...
 
yeah, but he seems willing to learn at least based on his tone. :)

noto2 man, here's why pyramids is one of the BEST early wonders in the game:

1. AI always neglects it meaning there is no risk to building (unlike every other one you'll always get it on immortal and probably on Deity too and it's dirt cheap. Usually <10 turns)
2. 2 free workers dude! at the most critical time of your empire! That hammer savings basically pays for the cost of the pyramids so the wonder is essentially free. You needed those workers anyway usually if you are truly REXing.
3. Even bigger: you get 25% boost to speed improvements and they are improving/connecting your empire fast! Another hidden bonus of this besides the meritocracy happiness and city connection gold is it makes your liberty empire defensible. You WILL get attacked if you expand too rapidly and having a solid road network early means it's easy to defend that empire. I can't imagine quickly improving all my wide-liberty cities if I didn't have pyramids and those free early workers. With it I can basically improve/connect every working hex in my empire by before T100 and keep on top of expansion.
4. A bit of culture and a GE point is nothing to scoff at. Getting through liberty a tad quicker is nice and that'll be another free wonder later when you cash in on the GE. If you get the wonder early enough that could be a free Sistine Chapel, Religious wonder, Machu-Pichu, or Notre Dame!

If I'm feeling cheesy the most important bonus of Pyramids is the 1 turn/repair time. Add a few workers to your invading army (which you do anyway, for worker baiting) and you've got yourself 25-50 health healing per turn, with the added gold as a bonus. It's almost broken.
 
If I'm feeling cheesy the most important bonus of Pyramids is the 1 turn/repair time. Add a few workers to your invading army (which you do anyway, for worker baiting) and you've got yourself 25-50 health healing per turn, with the added gold as a bonus. It's almost broken.

Heh, what bonus are you talking about ?

As for the post you replied to: Its not like i normally hand build many workers, i steal them with scouts that i need to build anyway. So the pyramids arent nearly free. The good thing to say about them is that while the 25% liberty bonus is mostly lost to rounding, the pyramids fix a reasonable bit of that.
 
Heh, what bonus are you talking about ?

As for the post you replied to: Its not like i normally hand build many workers, i steal them with scouts that i need to build anyway. So the pyramids arent nearly free. The good thing to say about them is that while the 25% liberty bonus is mostly lost to rounding, the pyramids fix a reasonable bit of that.

With both the policy and Pyramids your repair time for pillaged improvements is cut down from 2 turns to 1. Which means instant gold and heal, every turn, for any unit parked on that tile, plus they can move after healing. Bring multiple workers with your army for multiple heals.

AI targets your CB? No problem, pillage to heal 25hp and shoot some more. Pikeman almost dead? Pillage, insta-repair tile and heal again for 50hp.
 
Well, if you're actually going for liberty DomV, then I usually won't built the pyramid, as I feel it's always better to pump out troops. Eventually some AI will build it and you'll get the pillage/repair effect when you capture it. However I think on MP, this might be something they rush.
 
However I think on MP, this might be something they rush.

It is, it's got massive utility on multi. Most people go liberty anyways just because it allows you to stay relevant in the game, but the Pyramids are really good for keeping happy during the REX phase, and it's also good for roading. In the NQ mod there are no one turn roads and in NQ games the pillage exploit is banned, and on top of that the NQ mod slightly nerfs it, but it's still one of the best wonders in the game because of one turn chops, 2-3 turn lux improvements, 3 turn farms and mines, 2 turn jungle chops, etc... It can down your jungle plantations to 5-6 turns, even. All on quick of course.
 
With both the policy and Pyramids your repair time for pillaged improvements is cut down from 2 turns to 1. Which means instant gold and heal, every turn, for any unit parked on that tile, plus they can move after healing. Bring multiple workers with your army for multiple heals.

AI targets your CB? No problem, pillage to heal 25hp and shoot some more. Pikeman almost dead? Pillage, insta-repair tile and heal again for 50hp.

Nice, i didnt know you can repair your enemies tiles. Thats actually good even with normal workers it doubles the healing capacity of your tanking pike.
 
It's kind of cheap and I think is considered an exploit/frowned upon in lots of like competitive play, both MP and SP. But it can be useful in a just for fun AI war or something.
 
I didn't start this thread to worship Tradition. I like the idea of Liberty. One of my favourite things to do in Civ4 was pick a leader who was good at it, and REX like mad (like Victoria), and have 10-12 cities before 1AD. I want to replicate that feeling in Civ5 sometimes, I certainly don't want to play as Babylon every game. The problem is that, while in Civ4 the map was conducive to a REX about 50% of the time on standard settings, in Civ5 I think it would be fair to say the number is closer to 10% of the time. There just isn't room.

Now everyone is talking Tradition vs Liberty and this thread has derailed. You're talking about an 8 city Liberty empire catching up to a 4 city Tradition. Yes, yes, yes, we get it, we get what Liberty is good at.

Now, tell me, how does a 4 city Liberty empire compare to a 4 city Tradition? Because most of the time you won't find more than 4-5 spots worth settling anyway.

As for the poster giving me advice on how to survive invasions early game, I don't need it. I'm not complaining that the AI kills me when I expand quickly. What I said was if I quickly expand to 3-4 cities and then get invaded, and then spent the entire early and mid game at war with all my neighbours and eventually conquer all of them and take over my whole continent - why did I need Liberty?? I could have just gone with Honour and had an easier time fighting and have an easier time upgrading my troops, and my troops would be at a higher level. If I'm going to spend the entire game at war and keep warring until I win by conquest, why do I need Liberty?

Liberty just does not suit most standard sized maps. You're either going to stay small because you have no choice and have no room, and develop your cities tall, or you're going to solve the fact you have no room by stomping all over everyone around you. It is rare that you have plenty of space all around you that you even have the option of filling it in yourself.

When I do make Liberty work, it feels like roleplaying. In my current game I expanded as fast as possible, got attacked, and then conquered a neighbour. Then I stopped. I sat on my 15 city empire and am now 1st place in all demographics and going for a culture victory. Sure, it's interesting (and I did use Liberty) but instead of stopping after conquering my first victim I'm sure I could have just continued conquering, and then I could have rushed astronomy and gone and conquered the other continent, and I could have won the game by now.

So I suppose if you want to roleplay Liberty is fine, but then if you want to roleplay anything is fine, you could just forgo all policies entirely.
 
It's kind of cheap and I think is considered an exploit/frowned upon in lots of like competitive play, both MP and SP. But it can be useful in a just for fun AI war or something.

People use it in the DCLs, GOTM and new Immortal and Deity leagues. I usually go Tradition so don't use it myself, but I wouldn't frown upon someone doing it.
 
I use that trick when I can think of it. Lugging around workers when invading is not something I always remember to do, I prefer a more "natural" approach to healing where I use the tiles of burned cities to recuperate and then advance :)
 
...doubles the healing capacity of your tanking pike.
Pillaging (when it uses a move) breaks the fortification defensive buff, so it is not quite perfect.

Now, tell me, how does a 4 city Liberty empire compare to a 4 city Tradition?
Not good, but that is a useless comparison -- because you opened Liberty either for the early rush or because you perceive the chance to plant 5+ good expos.

Because most of the time you won't find more than 4-5 spots worth settling anyway.
Yes, but &#8220;most of the time&#8221; might be as little as 60% of the time.

IMHO, you have done very little to justify the provocative assertion you made in the thread title.
 
Now, tell me, how does a 4 city Liberty empire compare to a 4 city Tradition?

Liberty is harder to compare because there are so many different ways to play it, i.e. Liberty hybrids are quite popular.

A smart player might be able to trigger a golden age before taking Representation and also score a Great Person, i.e. an Engineer from building Pyramids and StoneHenge before they get the free finisher Great Person.
That I believe makes the tree much more powerful. To be able to score 2 golden ages and 2 great people at the same time is incredible. Otherwise the free golden age resets the golden age timer to zero (I think) as well as increasing the cost of the next golden age... And it will delay your first great person. It took me some time to figure this out but there is a real advantage to timing Representation carefully.

If you were to play Liberty to 4 cities, I'd be focusing heavily on religion & wonders to buff my civ. You can build early Wonders without falling behind on settlers.

Temple of Artemis :thumbsup:
Pagoda's for happiness :thumbsup:
Swords into Ploughshares :thumbsup:
Tithe :thumbsup:

There you go - now you have 4 city Liberty with all the benefits of Tradition
 
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