The 12th Planet

[Xen]

@wtiberon- I woudl argue that by definition, faith is something a person activlly belives in, dispite knowing that they cannot actually prove it; ehnce why to "have fiath", means you "have to berlive", which also means you cant proove anythign, you just choose to belive in somthing; Perfection ont he other hand, takes what has been proven, and what is the most likelly, and goes with it; both have thier ups and downs, but are not the same thing.

 

[Perfection]

Because you refuse to accept other notions that may be or may not be true because current trends do not point that way

No I do it because there is little evidence in it's favor and the competing ideas fit the solution much better.

Your missing the point...again. I'm simply stating that you shouldn't utterly refute a theory if you have no evidence to refute it with.

1. If a theory has no evidence I have no reason to accept it and can legitimitly disregard it. The reason, the burden of proof goes on those making the radical claim.
2. I do have refutatory evidence! Here's a little bit of it:
There were no reported sightings of it back when it was near the asteroid belt back in about 160 bc
The asteroid belt is too small for the theory

You have become entrenched in the idea that what science says must be the truth...you take the newest scientific data and ear mark it as truth...thats very very very scary.

Incorrect, I acknowledge that science makes mistakes, it does, and it admits; in fact its self-correcting nature and the ability to admit is wrong is part of its power. I always take scientific data with a grain of salt, for example I am still very skeptical about different future cosmological models. However, if some crackpot tries to overturn a whole bunch well-evidenced, well-thought-out, well-documented theories with a silly story and not a thimble of evidence I'm crying foul!

The things that Pluto believes in DOES have some validity...just as much as what you believe in.

Explain to me why a crackpot without a thimble of evidence with data that's inconsistant with itself and that of astronomy is equal to a whole bunch well-evidenced, well-thought-out, well-documented theories.

What I mean by blind faith is your forced to believe what science says simply because you actively cannot prove otherwise. You recieve data from test that you yourself did not witness and say "o well the scientists says it true so it must be."

First off I've witnessed demonstrations of numerous scientific theories and found them to be valid, and the thing is I actively can prove otherwise! I can build a teloscope and test these theories, I can reproduce a large amount of what science says! Should I not occasionally trust a society of people with values similar to mine? Look at it from a historical perspective, look at all this modern stuff we have around us, and who came up with the formulas to make it all possible? Scientists! They have proven themselves to be onto something! Also, you make the common assertion that science is dogmatic and forces people to beleive things. This is wrong, the entire history of science is a history of people debating each other. Scientists may agree on many things but they also disagree on many things. Science isn't an organised church, it's an arena of debate!

I suppose science is just as good of a thing to believe in as any but DO NOT begin to critize other theories simply because you do not believe them to have enough "evidence".

Why not? If I claim that purple invisable giraffes are sitting on your shoulder I'd epect any resaonable person to call me a wacko! How else can we determine validity if we don't look at evidence? With your mindset there would be no scientific progress!

You should express your theories but you shouldn't critize other's theories lest you be critized. Your young but you'll understand in time I'm sure .

Hell, I want criticism for my theories! If I make a theory, I would expect nothing less then an all out attack on it. Why? Because if it is wrong then I'll see why it is wrong and can change it to be right, and if it is right, everone will know a lot more about my thoery and how it impacts our universe. That's what science is about, debating theories!

Here's a great quote, unfortunatly I don't remember where I got it:

"The most dignified death for a scientific thoery is going out kicking and screaming."

 

[Mrogreturns]

If people really do like to ignore evidence when making decsions, well good luck to them I say- especially when they are crossing the road. Actually, the number of people that seem willing to buy into anything that seems vaguely scientific if it panders to their beliefs has given me a great idea for a real money-spinner when I approach retirement.

 

[Perfection]

Actually, the number of people that seem willing to buy into anything that seems vaguely scientific if it panders to their beliefs has given me a great idea for a real money-spinner when I approach retirement.

But that will make my campaign against scientific illiteracy that much harder.

 

[Mrogreturns]

But that will make my campaign against scientific illiteracy that much harder.

Yeah, well I probably wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it in the end, but it's tempting.

On the other hand though- if you really encouraged the "all ideas are equally vallid" crowd to apply that priniciple consistantly in their daily lives, then there would be a lot fewer of them in a few short years.

 

[Perfection]

Yeah, well I probably wouldn't be able to bring myself to do it in the end, but it's tempting.

So what exactly is the scam?

 

[Chukchi Husky]

I think that the Nibiru theory combines many other theories about new planets, alien civs and mythology to explain events in the pasts that aren't fully explained, our evolution as a species and anomalies. Many things about this theory still have to be explained, like the planet's true orbit and it's effect on the solar system, and how that planet can support intelligent life.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

I think that the Nibiru theory combines many other theories about new planets, alien civs and mythology to explain events in the pasts that aren't fully explained, our evolution as a species and anomalies. Many things about this theory still have to be explained, like the planet's true orbit and it's effect on the solar system, and how that planet can support intelligent life.

I agree. I agree.

 

[Perfection]

I think that the Nibiru theory combines many other theories about new planets, alien civs and mythology to explain events in the pasts that aren't fully explained, our evolution as a species and anomalies. Many things about this theory still have to be explained, like the planet's true orbit and it's effect on the solar system, and how that planet can support intelligent life.

Also it would have to explain how a planet that huge could form, how a planet could get such an ususual orbit, why there is no evidence of such a massive gravitational distortion, and much other stuff. As for mythologies most can be much more easily explained with standard history coupled with eggageration. If there were aliens on earth, floods that wiped out the entire middle east, and a planet with enough mass to cause devestation millions of miles away there should be a whole lot of signs. I have been given none. I find it most unlikely that that would occur without leaving a trace.

Oh and one more thing, for Niburu to have the same gravitational effect on earth as the moon from the asteroid belt (obviously needed if it's going to have such massive flooding impacts on the tide) it would need to be about 5,800 times the mass of the earth. That's not planetary mass that's stellar!

 

[Chukchi Husky]

I already posted why the end of the ige age causing the biblical flood in a short time scale required isn't possible. The Niburu timeline gives this event less than 500 years, when in reality the end of the ige ages wasn't this fast, it lasted thousands of years, and the end of the ige ages fluctuated in temperature, with periods of warm and cold weather. The time difference between the beginning of the end of the last ice age and the Black Sea flood is around 6,000 years, so a sudden tsunami is not possible.

Mythology wasn't always a retelling of past events. Some of it might be linked to history, but most were used to explain naturally occuring events and stories to enhance the worship of their gods and the superiority of their civilisation.

The Niburu theory doesn't explain civilisations of the far east and the Americas. The way this theory could explain civilisations in these regions is the same as the Atlantis theory.

Nuclear war coundn't have destroyed the Sumerians. First, it was the wrong time, and the end of Sumeria as an independant civilisation was 1900 BC, when it was conquered by the Amorites. Then it wasn't destroyed, it was assimilated. The nuclear war could explain the Mahabharata, but it would be in the wrong location.

Niburu is "a distant member of our solar system". How can a distant body have a gravitational effect on the Earth. Also how can a distant body develop life. The planet would also probably be bombarded, because it would be farther than Pluto, probably in the Oort cloud.

The Dogon tribe in Birkina believe in an alien race called the Nommos, but they come from a planet orbiting an undiscovered star in the Sirius group, with diagrams of the motion of the stars of Sirius. This belief first appeared in the 18th century, after the discovery of Sirius B.

The beings of Niburu must have some form of communications, but that has not been detected.

 

[Quasar1011]

That 12th planet thing is based on the astrological concept that the sun and moon are also planets. You REALLY need to study ancient history and mythology....

Astrology... BAD, BAD, BAD SCIENCE!!!!

 

[Hygro]

I AM NOT CALLING THE SUN A PLANET, [EXPLETIVE DELETED]!!!!

Hey that almost rhymes

I've seen this before...this is a somewhat legitamate if not bizarre interpretation of ancient Sumerian text. In this interpretation Sumerian gods have been interpreted as being alien occupiers and magical acts now becomes technological know how. The storied timeline does follow to Sumerian text.

And if you read the deliberately fictional Snow Crash by Neil Stephenson, it says--well I'd rather not give away the plot but that's not supposed to make you believe and it's more convincing than this.

Astrology... BAD, BAD, BAD SCIENCE!!!!

Well, it's not science but it isn't bad either.

And to Perfection and Xen, I hope you do not lump anyone who believes in various "new age" whatnots into the same catagory...

 

[Perfection]

And to Perfection and Xen, I hope you do not lump anyone who believes in various "new age" whatnots into the same catagory...

Perhaps not every "new age" idea is invalid (like the efficacy of certain herbal remedies), but a large portion of it with thier body magnets and their energy crystals and bizarre and stupid recreated histories falls squarely in Downtown Hooeyville

 

[Hygro]

Ah, so it appears you do basically lump the whole thing together

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

Astrology... BAD, BAD, BAD SCIENCE!!!!

Well guess what?! I don't "believe" in astrology, but I still work with it anyway! So there!

Perhaps not every "new age" idea is invalid (like the efficacy of certain herbal remedies), but a large portion of it with thier body magnets and their energy crystals and bizarre and stupid recreated histories falls squarely in Downtown Hooeyville

"Body magnets" and "energy crystals," hmm? 'Far as I can tell, it's most likely a few (or a lot) centuries away. Well, until I come along to speed things up!!!

 

[Dr. Yoshi]

Now shouldn't we be having global floods every 3,600 years because of this Nibiru planet? Also the geological record does not indicate that there was an event that flooded the entire Middle East in 11,000 B.C.E. nor that there has ever been a global flood in the history of mankind. Perhaps there is a 10th planet, but it certainly doesn't follow the orbit you have indicated.

 

[PlutonianEmpire]

Now shouldn't we be having global floods every 3,600 years because of this Nibiru planet? Also the geological record does not indicate that there was an event that flooded the entire Middle East in 11,000 B.C.E. nor that there has ever been a global flood in the history of mankind. Perhaps there is a 10th planet, but it certainly doesn't follow the orbit you have indicated.

Most of the events that Sitchin talks about takes place in what is now Iraq.

As for the global flooding part, according to Perfection, for Nibiru to even cause massive flooding here on earth, it has to be 5,800 more massive than Earth. If that was true, any life on nibiru would have been nuked (because of nuclear fusion within the body), therefore, eliminating any chance of these guys coming to earth. So after reading and saying this, it is my conclusion that someone, possibly a Nibiruan, falsified historical records. As for that sheet of ice breaking off Antartica and causing a big tsunami? I think that the Nibiruans planted a bunch of bombs.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

So after reading and saying this, it is my conclusion that someone, possibly a Nibiruan, falsified historical records.

What about the guy who originally wrote the timeline? How do you know that he had inaccuracies in his article?

As for that sheet of ice breaking off Antartica and causing a big tsunami? I think that the Nibiruans planted a bunch of bombs.

Antarctic glaciers won't be the cause. The closest glaciers to mesopotamia at the end of the ige age were the ones in the Alps, and are also in the wrong location to affect mesopotamia. The way a tsunami could affect mesopotamia directly is either an earthquake or an impact in the Persian Gulf.

 

[Perfection]

As for the global flooding part, according to Perfection, for Nibiru to even cause massive flooding here on earth, it has to be 5,800 more massive than Earth.

Actually I was being lazy and just used the inverse square law it would actually need to be much bigger (bigger than the sun) as tides forces follow and inverse cube law. Of course I don't think about tides too much and didn't realize this until a few hours later

If that was true, any life on nibiru would have been nuked (because of nuclear fusion within the body), therefore, eliminating any chance of these guys coming to earth. So after reading and saying this, it is my conclusion that someone, possibly a Nibiruan, falsified historical records. As for that sheet of ice breaking off Antartica and causing a big tsunami? I think that the Nibiruans planted a bunch of bombs.

Umm, how did they falsify historical records if there is not any histrorical records of a large planet causing floods on earth? As for the Sheet of ice breaking off of Anaractica, that would flood the entire middle east (especially not Iraq) as yuou contend.

All you are doing is modifying your lame Nibiru story to include things while providing no evidence that it is correct.

 

[Dr. Yoshi]

Ah, but if this planet were to exist in the orbit indicated wouldn't it be visible in the night sky? Considering how close it comes to Earth it would certainly at least be visible. And what about the silt layer? There is no record of a flood covering the entire Middle East in 11,000 B.C.E. nor is there anything to support a deliberate removal of such a layer by the inhabitants of Nibiru.

While I must admit I do find the linked timeline to be a fun read, as a legitimate scientific theory it loses all credibility IMHO.