The African Origin of Ancient Egyptian Civilization

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First, what evidence is there that the Copts are any less mixed than their Muslim compatriots?

Copts tend to, and have tended to marry within their people for many, many centuries. In Islam, at least how it is practiced in Egypt, a child of one muslim is a muslim, therefore a Copt that married outside of their community would stop being a Copt. Further, how black does Obama look? He certainly looks a lot more black than any Copt I've seen, and he's half lily white WASP. By suggesting that the ancestors of modern Copts "look black," you are essentially arguing that there was some serious ethnic cleasing with the populations replaced by Near East and European settlers. Where is your evidence of such occurances?

Secondly, the data I cite show "sub-Saharan" traits occurring in Egyptians as early as the predynastic era (i.e. before the unification of Egypt by Narmer/Menes).

And what does that prove? Egypt is right next to a nation that we know was populated by "blacks." Why is it surprising or significant that some of their traits would show up in the Egyptian population? Why, in the skull comparison, did they compare to Egypt's next door neighbors on the one hand, but Europeans on the other instead of Egypt's Levantine and North African neighbors?
 
What ethnicity is Hannibal? I've heard he's middle eastern in appearance.
-attackfigter

I don't think anyone is certain. I've heard he is Semitic, or Phoenician as Cathage was a Phoenician colony. Later statues and busts built dedicated to him have tried to make him seem more Greek-like.
 
What ethnicity is Hannibal? I've heard he's middle eastern in appearance.
-attackfigter

Hannibal was a Carthaginian aristocrat, and thus a Phoenician. Therefore, he probably would have looked much like modern Lebanese. On the other hand, the Carthaginians probably intermixed somewhat with their Numidian and other Berber neighbors, so he may very well have looked roughly Southern European.
 
Yet most people do not realize this and continue to think of Egypt as part of the “Near East” or “Mediterranean”.

This reason for this should be obvious: it is a legacy of racism.
I think I'm making an understatement here when I say this is a sweeping overgeneralization.

People use terms like "Mediterranean" because it is a useful term. A Greek would likely have found much greater similarities between himself and a Minoan, Etruscan and yes Egyptian then he would have with a Pict, a Sami or a Gael.

• Divine Kingship: Unlike in Mesopotamia, where the king was an intermediary between the gods and the mortal population, in Egypt the pharaoh was a god who had the power to make the Nile flood and inundate farmers’ fields. In other African societies, the king is also thought to be a god with control over the weather; his duty is to make it rain.
• Circumcision: In both ancient Egypt and some African societies, children would be circumcised as a coming-of-age rite.
• Animal Worship: Egyptians thought that certain animals were living representations of their gods. For instance, cats represented the goddess Bast, cattle the goddess Hathor or the god Apis, and crocodiles the god Sobek. Many African societies also practice this type of animal worship.
• Ancestor Worship/Veneration: The Egyptians believed in honoring their deceased ancestors and would hold feasts in their honor. Ancestor veneration is also widespread in the rest of Africa.
• Voodoo: The Egyptians believed that if you made an image of your enemies and damaged it, the enemies would be hurt as well. A similar belief is found in the “voodoo” religions of Africa.
This is very willy nilly scholarship. The only one of these not practice nearly universally (including what you consider "voodoo") is Circumcision which is hardly unique to Africa.

The first reason is that it will make our reconstructions of ancient Egypt more accurate.
Then the question is, do we have any texts by the Africans expressing their belief that they are an "African" people, in the sense that we mean "African?"

The second reason is that denying Egypt its Africanity in spite of the facts does a disservice to people of African descent. It denies them their heritage and sends the message that people of their stock could not have accomplished a civilization as powerful or influential as Egypt. It therefore perpetuates racism against Africans and people with African ancestry.
But it's largely irrelevant to most people of African descent because most people of African Descent are not Egyptian. I mean, if you're of Bantu descent, what does it matter what the Egyptians were or what they did when looking at your ancestors achievements: they weren't Egyptian.

And this points to the problem with this essay. It uses race, a concept not more then three or four centuries old, and projects it back into the past as if it would be a useful method of analysis then.
 
To people of Bantu origin, you should point to the Nok culture, the masks of Ife, or Great Zimbabwe for great historical culture, not the pyramids.
 
To people of Bantu origin, you should point to the Nok culture, the masks of Ife, or Great Zimbabwe for great historical culture, not the pyramids.

And those of West African descent, like most who identify as African-American should point to Mali or Songhai, though I can understand why they wouldn't want to considering how many of their ancestors were sold by those states rather than captured by Europeans in slave raids.
 
Copts tend to, and have tended to marry within their people for many, many centuries. In Islam, at least how it is practiced in Egypt, a child of one muslim is a muslim, therefore a Copt that married outside of their community would stop being a Copt. Further, how black does Obama look? He certainly looks a lot more black than any Copt I've seen, and he's half lily white WASP. By suggesting that the ancestors of modern Copts "look black," you are essentially arguing that there was some serious ethnic cleasing with the populations replaced by Near East and European settlers. Where is your evidence of such occurances?

Egypt had been invaded by Europeans and Southwest Asians several times before the Arabs came over and the Coptic identity formed, so those Egyptians who became Copts would still have been mixed by the time of the Islamic conquest.
 
Egypt had been invaded by Europeans and Southwest Asians several times before the Arabs came over and the Coptic identity formed, so those Egyptians who became Copts would still have been mixed by the time of the Islamic conquest.

Yeah? How about all those Nubian invasions? Now they don't count? And I notice that you ignored the second part of my statement. Wholesale change of phenotype, particularly of darker to lighter, requires a hell of a lot more than a few invasions. You need outright mass migrations coupled with ethnic cleansing, neither of which has ever happened to Egypt.
 
Yeah? How about all those Nubian invasions? Now they don't count?

There was only one of "all those" Nubian invasions, whereas there were several invasions by Europeans and Southwest Asians.

I know that might have sounded pedantic, but you seemed to be implying that Nubians would have changed the ancient Egyptian phenotype as much as those other conquerors.
 
There was only one of "all those" Nubian invasions, whereas there were several invasions by Europeans and Southwest Asians.

I know that might have sounded pedantic, but you seemed to be implying that Nubians would have changed the ancient Egyptian phenotype as much as those other conquerors.

No, there were definitely more than one, though not all were able to establish rule over all of Egypt. The 12th and 25th Dynasties at the very least, did manage to rule all of Egypt and were of Nubian origin. Further, the opposite also occurred, as in much of Nubia/Kush was conquered and ruled by Egypt for long periods, during which Nubians were levied as soldiers and stationed elsewhere in the Empire, and there were the standard population movements and intermarriages. It's unclear whether all the repeated conquests by and of Nubia/Kush affected Egyptian phenotype as much as the conquests of and by Levantines, Greeks, etc, but they would not be grossly different.
 
No, there were definitely more than one, though not all were able to establish rule over all of Egypt. The 12th and 25th Dynasties at the very least, did manage to rule all of Egypt and were of Nubian origin. Further, the opposite also occurred, as in much of Nubia/Kush was conquered and ruled by Egypt for long periods, during which Nubians were levied as soldiers and stationed elsewhere in the Empire, and there were the standard population movements and intermarriages.

Thanks for the correction.
 
Egypt had been invaded by Europeans and Southwest Asians several times before the Arabs came over and the Coptic identity formed, so those Egyptians who became Copts would still have been mixed by the time of the Islamic conquest.
Yes, but the problem is that for most of Egyptian history they were moving into the most densly populated country possibly in the world at the time. If one is to assume fundamental changes in the demographic composition it really is the hardest case, simply because there were such a lot of Egyptians. I.e. there just wouldn't be enough people to radically change the Egyptian ethnic makeup except very slowly and very gradually, unless we throw in some kind of ad hoc-hypothesis about the Egyptians either stopping breeding, or being massacred in record numbers, neither of which there is any indication of.

That's not to say imigration hasn't impacted it. Your problem, which is perennial in discussion about race-as-nationality, would seem to be that you want to fix a point in time as zero hour where demarcations were clean, when the ancient Egyptians were specifically "black". (Though since you actually refer to them as East African you have radically extended the application of "black". To me it resembles certain "race-maps" of the world from the 1930's extending the "white race" all the way down East Africa, to Swaziland. I.e. this is a bad idea, and it can be played both ways, since there's a continuum, and East Africans have from time to time been regarded as "white" by those inclined to try to define human races.)

You yourself has pointed to what's considered the likeliest scenario for the original large scale settlement of the Nile valley, the drying up of the Sahara. The general assumption is that people would converge on the valley from all direction but north. So already there Egypt has a probable character of a melting pot. You seem to want to make it exclusively about the southerners, who may or may not have been numerically dominant. The thing about Egyptian geography however is that it's the delta that can really support a huge population. So even if Egypt was unified from the south, which I agree on, you now seem to have to radically downplay what was after all the bread-basket of the country and an as far as we know the great prize for the southerners, and an equal partner in defining Egyptian kingship, the Land of the Sage, Lower Egypt.

The Nile vally in general was a Great Attractor of people through its history. In all likelyhood is was the same in prehistory. Once in the valley, the ability to support a large population would allow groups moving in to increase their numbers, but not faster than those already established. This does allow for slow gradual shifts in the composition of the population, but since ancient Egyptian civilisation was an ongoing process, it also becomes unclear why some, "black" or East Africans", should count but not others? Obviously there would be people one might consider either/or "black" and African contributing, in particular the kings of the unificstion, but why possible other groups should be excluded begs the question?

As far as I can tell, the most probable assumption is still that Egyptians today look pretty much like they always have. I.e. people tend to have darker complexion the further south along the valley you get, looking east African if you like, and on occasion "black" in a western conventional sense. Just like up at the Mediterranean coast they look, well, mostly like people around the Med. And the things is that according to what we know of how the ancient Egyptians figuered their own identity, things like this didn't seem to matter.
 
You yourself has pointed to what's considered the likeliest scenario for the original large scale settlement of the Nile valley, the drying up of the Sahara. The general assumption is that people would converge on the valley from all direction but north. So already there Egypt has a probable character of a melting pot. You seem to want to make it exclusively about the southerners, who may or may not have been numerically dominant. The thing about Egyptian geography however is that it's the delta that can really support a huge population. So even if Egypt was unified from the south, which I agree on, you now seem to have to radically downplay what was after all the bread-basket of the country and an as far as we know the great prize for the southerners, and an equal partner in defining Egyptian kingship, the Land of the Sage, Lower Egypt.

Are you sure the northerners would have looked that much different from the southerners to begin with? Keep in mind that it wasn't until the arrival of the Hyksos that there was a large-scale movement of Southwest Asian people into the region (though there was some commerce between Egypt and Southwest Asia before then).
 
Are you sure the northerners would have looked that much different from the southerners to begin with? Keep in mind that it wasn't until the arrival of the Hyksos that there was a large-scale movement of Southwest Asian people into the region (though there was some commerce between Egypt and Southwest Asia before then).
How large scale were the Hyksos? There seem to have an influx across the Sinai in the First Intermediary period as well, but mostly this wasn't an active border until the New Kingdom.

The western Libyan coastline would seem a much more continuously used route. And since Egypt was an African kingdom, for most of its history it was oriented southwards, as that was where most of the trade and serious threats came from. But the single greatest recorded migratory event I can think of are the Libyans, the Chiefs of Libu and Mashwash, pretty much taking over the western half of the Delta from around 1000 B.C., supplying a number of dynasties of their own to Egyptian history. The Ramessides fought them hard, but as soon as the Egyptian rulers mellowed a bit, they moved in.

As for the difference between south and north, you positioned that in your essay, or am I mistaken? To my mind the situation then most likely looked like it does today.
 
How large scale were the Hyksos?

I don't know if there exist exact statistics of their numbers, but for them to have taken over Lower Egypt the way they did, they must have been quite numerous.

As for the difference between south and north, you positioned that in your essay, or am I mistaken? To my mind the situation then most likely looked like it does today.

Yes, I do mention that "sub-Saharan" traits were stronger in Upper than Lower Egyptians. However, the sub-Saharan peoples used in the study I cited were more stereotypically "Negroid" peoples like Kenyans or Gabonese. For all we know, the original Lower Egyptians could have looked like Eritreans or Ethiopians, who are often thought of as "black" in common parlance but don't have such pronounced "Negroid" features.
 
I don't know if there exist exact statistics of their numbers, but for them to have taken over Lower Egypt the way they did, they must have been quite numerous.
Depends on how they did it. Cases are still made for both the sudden introduction of a small military ruling elite, and for a gradual migratory influx changing the ethnic composition in the eastern Delta. If it was the latter situation, it seems like with the Libyans later in the western Delta.

I assume you mean this can be interpreted as the "original" Egyptians being different, and more "black"? But there's no specific reason to assume people from Cyrenaica would not move in from the west in prehistoric times, but people from considerably further south would. Otoh my point is that these kinds of influxes seem to have occurred from time to time, and that this can be assumed about the prehistoric period as well, meaning the Egypt as a great attractor of peoples was getting fed at least at irregular intervals. Which were then blended into the majority. And that regardless of who and when, they continued to end up as Egyptians in the end. But we just have records of some such events, and even then they tend to be so sketchy we end up doing interpretative guesswork as to what it might actually have meant.
Yes, I do mention that "sub-Saharan" traits were stronger in Upper than Lower Egyptians. However, the sub-Saharan peoples used in the study I cited were more stereotypically "Negroid" peoples like Kenyans or Gabonese. For all we know, the original Lower Egyptians could have looked like Eritreans or Ethiopians, who are often thought of as "black" in common parlance but don't have such pronounced "Negroid" features.
Yes I agree that going by looks the Upper Egyptians would blend into Nubians, blending into the peoples of Ethiopia. Sure.

But you're still extending "black" to pretty much "anyone from Africa" here. Ask an Ethiopian if he really considers himself black in any way resembling what that identity indicates in the US. "Black people" doesn't come into being as category until there's first "white people" telling them they're different, and what a blight on human history that situation has been. But no one was telling the Egyptians in their heyday anything of the sort, and they certainly weren't coming up with that dichotomy themselves.

"African" is not a problem here, except it's damn unspecified. Obviously ancient Egypt was African. So were/are Ethiopians, Libyans etc., and more to the point so were the Egyptians, even after assimilating immigrants over time.

In fact, would you really disagree that the centrality of "blackness" in your essay isn't really about things rather far removed from ancient Egypt? To me it seems a strangely roundabout way to approach considerably more important matters. The route over ancient Egypt seems unnecessarily convoluted, and I'd be really interested in your feedback on this, since apparently it has become in some strange way a specifically important symbolic battleground.

The whole black-white dichotomy, regardless of which side the Egyptians would be presumed to fall on, is a massive anachronism. It says next to nothing about ancient Egypt per se, since they didn't recognise it, but speaks volumes about our own times, and the last couple of centuries of history, I suppose specifically about race relations in the US.
 
The whole black-white dichotomy, regardless of which side the Egyptians would be presumed to fall on, is a massive anachronism. It says next to nothing about ancient Egypt per se, since they didn't recognise it, but speaks volumes about our own times, and the last couple of centuries of history, I suppose specifically about race relations in the US.
Actually in this case it's a massive prenachronism.
 
"Black people" doesn't come into being as category until there's first "white people" telling them they're different, and what a blight on human history that situation has been.

Very nicely put. It's like the difficulty that many Americans have with categorising a mixed-race person such as Obama: he's not white, so he must be black. One might as well say that he's not black, so he must be white, but that's not how racial discourse seems to work, at least not in that country.

This is a very interesting thread. It's like a demonstration of the amazing knowledge that posters here have, applied with laser-like focus to a particular issue.
 
Applying black to Egyptians screams anachronism, if it wasn't a significant factor to the Egyptians which the historic record would seem to indicate to me, I don't see why it matters in the least.

JEELEN said:
Some problems with the key thesis: African (as in black Africa) populations have been limited to below the Sahara; this even holds true for the black populations of Australasia (Maori, Aboriginals).

What are you talking about here? It doesn't really make all that much sense.

Kahotep said:
• Divine Kingship: Unlike in Mesopotamia, where the king was an intermediary between the gods and the mortal population, in Egypt the pharaoh was a god who had the power to make the Nile flood and inundate farmers’ fields. In other African societies, the king is also thought to be a god with control over the weather; his duty is to make it rain.
• Circumcision: In both ancient Egypt and some African societies, children would be circumcised as a coming-of-age rite.
• Animal Worship: Egyptians thought that certain animals were living representations of their gods. For instance, cats represented the goddess Bast, cattle the goddess Hathor or the god Apis, and crocodiles the god Sobek. Many African societies also practice this type of animal worship.
• Ancestor Worship/Veneration: The Egyptians believed in honoring their deceased ancestors and would hold feasts in their honor. Ancestor veneration is also widespread in the rest of Africa.
• Voodoo: The Egyptians believed that if you made an image of your enemies and damaged it, the enemies would be hurt as well. A similar belief is found in the “voodoo” religions of Africa.

  • Divine Kingship - Malay Mahārāja's were living gods as well!
  • Circumcision - Some Malay's practiced that as well!
  • Animal Worship - They did that to!
  • Ancestor Worship/Veneration - And that!
  • Voodoo - and practiced something that could pass as that as well!

Ma' boys Srivijaya must have come from sub-Saharan Africa!
 
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