The all forest starts are rape.

[xienwolf]

The answer to that question is: Not for all civilizations.

Elves would love it how it is now. Dwarves would enjoy moving the hills up to the top possibly. Lanun would be pleased as punch about the sea resources counting for fewer points than land resources do...

Though the team may not have noticed this EXACT problem initially, they DID notice a need to be able to get a good starting point. You are ABSOLUTELY NOT meant to settle yourself where the game starts you. IT IS A DESIGN FEATURE for you to move that settler around, take a look at the terrain, and select a good spot, not to have the game create a good spot for you.

Overall, I could go for having all of the start position functions completely removed other than searching the map for an area with your civilization's preferred terrain nearby in decent quantities. I do not see much work being done on this until the team gets around to working on all of the AI. AI encompasses this and every other "thinking process" of the computer, not just how your opponents play the game against you.


So, I am still saying "deal with it," even though I didn't initially, and this time I actually refer to your link (which is what you should have stated, that only one person referred to it, not that only one person clicked on it).

 

[Grillick]

It seems to me that the real problem with the all-forest starts is that forests take up 2 movement points, so you can only adjust one space from your default location if you want to found your capital on Turn 0. If Starting Settlers ignored terrain movement costs, or had only 2 movement points, but treated all squares as roads, then this problem would be eliminated, and you would be able to (and it would be wise to) adjust your starting location appropriately.

 

[Jie]

Although this might not work for all Civs, but I've often ignored BW and just got an adept with smoke to burn down all the forests/jungles.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Jie, I'm going to try that. Thanks for the idea, even if I don't end up finding it to work that well.

Forests don't get destroyed when they burn, but rather turn into stumps that function like featureless terrain until they regrow into "new forests", right?

 

[Jie]

You got time to build before it grows back. You can always burn again if you don't finish all your improvements.

 

[Farmer Bobathan]

Maybe a new burnt forest feature could be made: chopped forest. This feature would be created if you chopped a forest before you have the required tech and gives no bonus to production.

 

[thFrgttn]

The main problem with all forest starts is not that players can't deal with it, but that the AI can't. This is really notable when some AI's fall behind others that didn't have a forest start.

But the solution is simple - stop playing games on a temperate climate.

 

[vale]

Or how about fixing whatever it is that's breaking the 'Regenerate Map' feature?

I think it is intentionally removed. Back when it was available, regenerating took away ingenuity gold and stripped the settlers of their movement bonuses. I assume it took away ingenuity gold from ai civs so that is possibly exploitable.

 

[Cuteunit]

The answer to that question is: Not for all civilizations.

Elves would love it how it is now. Dwarves would enjoy moving the hills up to the top possibly. Lanun would be pleased as punch about the sea resources counting for fewer points than land resources do...

Though the team may not have noticed this EXACT problem initially, they DID notice a need to be able to get a good starting point. You are ABSOLUTELY NOT meant to settle yourself where the game starts you. IT IS A DESIGN FEATURE for you to move that settler around, take a look at the terrain, and select a good spot, not to have the game create a good spot for you.

Overall, I could go for having all of the start position functions completely removed other than searching the map for an area with your civilization's preferred terrain nearby in decent quantities. I do not see much work being done on this until the team gets around to working on all of the AI. AI encompasses this and every other "thinking process" of the computer, not just how your opponents play the game against you.


So, I am still saying "deal with it," even though I didn't initially, and this time I actually refer to your link (which is what you should have stated, that only one person referred to it, not that only one person clicked on it).

The starting Warrior has no movement bonuses and you just get your settler eaten by a wolf.

It's not fun to get a bad starting location. It holds you back in versus or coop, and in SP it's still boring as all hell to have still have 9 research by turn 100, 11 if you built an elder's council.. big deal.

 

[Nefelia]

*facepalm* at only one person actually following my link.

bigger facepalm at people essentially saying "just deal with it" when it's clearly a bug based on that link I gave, and one that hurts FfH more than normal civ4.

To be honest, I would rather see people deal with it than re-arrange the tech tree for a problem that can be easily solved with a turn or two of movement.

I did follow your link before posting my original reply. I saw a city with its BFC stuffed with forests, but with a vast expanse of open field beyond. It would have taken two turns in BtS to move your Settler so that less than half of the BFC was covered with trees. Three turns would have cleared you from the trees entirely. In FFH, your initial Settler could move out much faster.

Forgive me if I sound unsympathetic, but I'm already in the habit of scouting 4-8 turns with my Settler until I find an ideal location fo rmy capital city (as Khazad, I often keep an eye out for Gold/Gems in areas with good growth potential). And although I understand that this can hurt the AI, but I play on Immortal dif, and I could use such a break.

We have info on how to FIX it, it looks like. Wouldn't moving the forestation step to after the 4-resource step and the 3 hills step be the answer

Sounds good.

 

[Nefelia]

The starting Warrior has no movement bonuses and you just get your settler eaten by a wolf.

Never had that happen to me, but I can see how it would be possible with the way trees and hills block the settler's sight. Settler scouting was so much better before FfH moved to BtS.

IIRC, animals do not spawn right away, so this should not be a problem unless you go for epic scouting journeys.

 

[it-ogo]

I like the idea where all workers can clear forests from the start, but BW halves the time etc. Even the most backwater civs could beat on a tree with stones and EVENTUALLY knock it down.

Technology is the following: you remove bark around the trunk near the root of each tree. Then wait a season to make forest dry and then burn. Of cause if you are able to have some fire without magic.

Edit: Actually bronze axes are not enough to chop down a large forest, not more then few trees. Even with iron cut-and-burn tech is better for clearing forests. Chopping was used when you need a wood rather then a clear land.

 

[Darkheart]

The current system does actually mirror real world mechanics, where the earliest (and most advanced) societies developed agriculture, thus forcing them to stay around in one place whilst the crops grew. All....(Edit MOST!)...of these happened on flat open river valleys (Nile, Tigris/Euphrates, Yangtze, Ganges).

The peoples who stayed/moved to forested areas remained small, transient, hunter gatherers, (sometimes referred to as Barbarian) for many, and in some cases tens of thousands of years.

If your intent is AG/Edu/Writing then forest areas are a realy bad start! But the Doviello or Clan settling in flood plain with granary's and libraries (even Great ones) doesn't seem to fit somehow.

Personally I like the protracted start in FFh2, I can certainly see how in MP, this would nail your coffin, but in single player I find that rushing Ag/Edu/Writ, even at Immortal/Diety level, leads to midgame boredom as you're now 200% above everyone else and only 3 more continents to conquer! It sort of loses the challenge, but maybe that's down to an AI that simply doesn't know how to play the game anymore.

I'd even like to see a hunter/gatherer mechanic, (possibly linked to the exploration tech), where, until you develop AG, you can settle for a few years build some scouts/warriors maybe even develop a tech like hunting or fishing, possibly build a 2nd settler, then up and move. It's definately not a game breaker strategy but it does add an extra dimension, and a bit more flavour. The problem again is teaching the AI.

However the name of the game is Civilization, not Barbarism. FFH2 presupposes that the various races have already had many years wandering the wilderness and that now its time to settle down again. Just seems strange why races like CoE, Dov and even Hippus should have to follow the same path as Ammurites, Bannor and Calabim.

They don't have to....but they'll lose!

Just my 2 cents worth

 

[cephalo]

Where is the starting locations code? Is it easily accessible?

The code causing the problem is the default behavior in the DLL, not in the actual map scripts. A map script can override that behavior, but most don't. The easy fix is to plop this code into a map script somewhere:

def normalizeAddExtras():
    return

This python function will override the default and do nothing. The only problem is some of the normalization will not take place, but you probably won't miss it.

 

[Falc]

I think it is intentionally removed. Back when it was available, regenerating took away ingenuity gold and stripped the settlers of their movement bonuses. I assume it took away ingenuity gold from ai civs so that is possibly exploitable.

I know it was intentionally removed because it broke some stuff. I find it weird that regenerating a map would not call all the initialization functions that a normal start does, but okay, if it doesn't it's probably unfixable by a mod.

Still, you could always create extra units, no? Every civ starts with a Founder unit (settler with +sight and +move) and Ingenious civs start with a Treasurer (which has a spell used in a city to turn him into 25 gold).

 

[BeefontheBone]

Rape != minor inconvenience.

 

[Cuteunit]

more a major inconvenience really. I've gone fifteen turns before settling in a mediocre location sometimes, and others I've started in Heaven on Earth.

It isnt fair.

 

[Nefelia]

more a major inconvenience really. I've gone fifteen turns before settling in a mediocre location sometimes, and others I've started in Heaven on Earth.

It isnt fair.

We're talking about the process that determines the land within your starting location's BFC. If you have wandered 15 turns and have found no good spot to settle, then this is not the problem. Either you simply drew a bad hand, or you should play around the map settings to get a map more suitable to your liking (for instance, I tend to select Rocky world when I play the Khazad).

Playing with Blessing of Amathaon should also make it easier to find a good location for your capital city.

 

[SwordofStriker]

more a major inconvenience really. I've gone fifteen turns before settling in a mediocre location sometimes, and others I've started in Heaven on Earth.

It isnt fair.

15 turns!!! Even with the movement bonus on your starting settler??? You're just way too picky.

 

[Quetz]

I remember an old modcomp called "jungle burner" that cleared jungle out of tiles directly around a civ's first city, to easy a crappy start position. Something like that would do wonders here