The Ancient Mediterranean MOD (TAM)

[Justus II]

Well, I was trying not to make them too tight, as I feel that can get to be an exploit, but with the city size limits, I knew it would take a long time to get to a size to use a full 21 tiles, so I didn't mind a little overlap. I tried to keep it to a minimum, however, 4-5 tiles of overlap, usually a distance of 4 tiles, or 3.5 with diagonals. I also just took all the captured cities as is, I haven't resettled any of their areas, with Temple of Zeus I have enough culture that I haven't had any flip back. (I did get one Gallian city to flip to me).

Actually, I thought I had read in your change logs that workers no longer required support, but according to the editor, and my in-game unit support numbers, they do still cost support. (Settlers as well, BTW). That may be something to fix in the next version, although it will just mean that much more available unit support.

At the time of this save game, I had about 25 native workers, 37 legions, 13 Comp. Bowman, 10 Praetorians, and then assorted triremes, ballistas, and older units to get to my 111 units. I also had about 40+ captured/purchased workers, and almost a dozen enslaved archers/bowmen, who do not cost support.

And I also like the Carthage effect (especially now that I've captured it) but I was suprised when I first saw the anchor symbol out in the middle of the Sahara!

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

Well... i'm getting a headache teaching myself how to add units. It initially appears to me that simply making the Phoenician ships available to Phoenicia will break things because there is no artwork for them. So instead of taking a chance on screwing it up, i'm teaching myself how to add units first. It could very well be that simply making the units available will work but i need to know how and why.

You might not want to count on my help too much, this is more complicated (for me) than it initially appears. I also forsee myself getting majorly sidetracked with learning how it all works.

I'll let you know if and when i actually start make progress on anything so you'll know ahead of time.

 

[Justus II]

I am still going to compile a list of 'quick-fixes' like traits for wonders and oddities in the upgrade paths, that can hopefully be fixed easily in the editor without adding or changing any units or graphic files, that maybe Thamis could include in the next update, along with Watorrey's great work on the Civilopedia. (BTW, I've been using it in-game for a couple days now, very handy!)

I also wouldn't be too quick to change the unit support levels until/unless you've gotten some more feedback from other players, even in normal civ I tend to keep my growth pace ahead of my unit count, and I tend to play above Emporer level, so those counts might not be indicative of other people's play style.

I should be able to finish the TAM-Stats file tomorrow or Friday at the latest, working on unit upgrade paths tonight. I will be leaving for military duty next week, and will be away from Civ for almost 3 weeks but when I get back, I'd be glad to playtest any other changes that are made.

 

[thamis]

Do not attempt to give the phoenician units to phoenicia. They used to be the old civ-specific trait. Phoenicia is supposed to have normal units! Their trait now is the harbour insta-transportation.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

Do not attempt to give the phoenician units to phoenicia. They used to be the old civ-specific trait. Phoenicia is supposed to have normal units! Their trait now is the harbour insta-transportation.

thanx.

I successfully downloaded and installed a unit into a test scenario. After doing that, i could see that just making those units available would have worked. I believe they could be simply deleted from the units list if they are not needed in c3c versions. That would make the units list in the editor shorter by 3 units.

I also see a problem here. Since it is your mod, and we are just casual players, we can come up with with lots of changes that you would not approve of. And having several different ppl working on the same file still leaves it up to one person to consolidate the changes.

 

[thamis]

Well... I don't know who's working on what. Maybe you should state it so that it can be coordinated?

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

I'll keep working on the civilopedia file inbetween playing.
All i'll be doing is cleaning it up and making it agree with the editor settings. If there are descriptions you have laying around for buildings and such that you wish added, it would be simple to do. This way i can't screw anything up.

If you wish me to do something specific, all you need do is let me know and i can teach myself the necessary skills to get it done. I don't have the creativity to come up with my own mod, so i'll work on yours

I really like this mod.

 

[Justus II]

I have been exclusively working on the Excel file that lists the Mod rules, I haven't made any changes with the editor either. However, in the process, I am typing up a list of settings in the editor that either do not match the notes from the Change Log or are not consistent with one another, and so would probably need to be fixed in the next version. I can (and plan to) send the list to you, Thamis, to make the changes in the next revision, or I could fix these in the editor myself, if you wish. The only 'additions' I have are adding some of the civ traits (Agricultural and Seafaring) to some of the wonders and improvements that seem appropriate, and again I would send you a list first.

NOTE: All my work so far has been reading from the editor with the Large Mediteranean file, I assume the rules are the same as the base mod, but I also assume that to implement any changes, all appropriate BIQ files (Large Med, TAM, Fertile Crescent) would have to be changed as well?

NOTE 2: There IS one Phoenician unique ship already, the Phoenician Merchant, that IS selected for them to build. There is NO tech requirement, so they should be able to build it at start. As it's a 4-move ship, that does NOT sink, that seems pretty overpowered, but in the editor it is allowable. On the other hand, the are not eligible to build any coracles (Early or normal), so this is their only early ship. I have included it in my list of unit oddities, but I just wanted to mention it since you were discussing the Phoenician ships. (Their 'normal' UU, the Merchant Ship, is still available at Map Making).

 

[Justus II]

OK, here's the compiled list of items from my editor research. Some of them are probably just omissions from adding units, or misclicks. There are several sections. The first is a list of contradictions from the Civ-Ability list and the wonders/improvements that actually implement them. Then there is a list of suggested new traits for improvements/wonders. The third section deals with units.

Most of these are quick fixes, but a few are question marks, things that may have been an oversight, or a concious design decision, I'm not sure, so I point them out. As I said, I would be willing to make the changes, but I'd like Thamis to review them first, in case some of them are supposed to be the way they are or I'm overlooking something. Also, I would need to know how to then import the changes from one file to another. (Or maybe I could change one rules file, then Thamis can import them into the scenarios?).

I have finished updating the TAM-Stats file, working on some formating and a clearer legend for the units page to show all the abbreviations I used. I also wanted to see if we would be making these changes, so I can incorporate them as well into the charts.

One thing I have not done yet (but may work on this afternoon, if I have time) is reviewing the UU list for the civs. I know Watorrey listed earlier that some civs only have 1, most have 2, and I think at least one had none. I'll try to look at that.

The list is in Microsoft Word format, if anyone cannot open the file let me know and I will send a text version.

 

[Justus II]

Just noticed an error in my error list!
Camel cavalry does have the +1hp bonus, like Light Cavalry, it's the Northern Cavalry and Auxillary Cavalry flavor units that lack the +1hp bonus of the Light Cavalry they replace.

Also, I have revised the Unique unit listing on my Civilizations page, and the Dacians do have (as Watorrey noted) three unique units, Peltast, Dacian Greatsword, and Horse Archer, and all are set to trigger the GA. The Goths and Germans also have a third unit, that I'm not sure whether it's supposed to be a UU or flavor unit. The Germanic Spear has one more attack point, and does not have the +1hp bonus, so I would treat that as a unique unit, but it may have been intended as strictly a flavor unit. It does not trigger GA.

Otherwise, all civs have two unique (or at least distinctive) units, but many have only one that will trigger the GA. The Phoenecians are in the position of having two ships for UU, neither of which is tagged to start a GA. Of course, since currently no wonders have the Seafaring trait selected, that means they have no chance of a Golden Age. Adding the Seafaring traits should give them a peaceful GA option (there are several seafaring-type wonders), adding the GA tag to the Merchant ship wouldn't help, as with no attack value, I think it is automatically sunk (or captured? if the attacking race can build them) if attacked.

 

[troopper5]

This might really have been asked before, but is this a scenario mod?
Or does this permamently replace graphics and units etc.?

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

This is just a scenario. A very good one

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

@ Justus II:
Excellent work The file opens in XP wordpad. I'll have to get the Excel reader for your spreadsheet unless you make a graphics of each page.

The term UU implies the ability to start a GA. Since there are also very few civs who have a unit that is 'unique' to them and even then, may not start a GA, i have been removed the term "UU" from the civilopedia as i run across it. The only thing truely unique to each civ is the civ specific ability.

Your comments reminded me of something: There are certain improvements the AI never builds except by accident as in losing a wonder race. Among these are granaries and walls/palisades. This means some civs that have buildings as a prerequisite for thier civ-specific wonder will never build it.

For example: I left Etruria alive so they would build thier civ specific wonder that puts granaries in every city. I suspect they will never build it however and the only way i can think of to get them to is to gift them a city with a granary already in it and hope they don't sell it.

To ensure the AI tries for every wonder, the building prerequisite should be removed from them all. If timing is an issue, make a tech the prerequisite, not a building. The gov't specific wonders seem to work and i get the impression the AI will switch gov'ts just so it can build them. (except theocracy... even the AI isn't stupid enough to switch to that)

Edit: FYI: the only traits that do not get 1/2 cost improvements are Expansionist, Commercial, Industrious.

 

[Justus II]

@Watorrey- Thanks for your comments. Yes, I'm trying to figure out how to best present the Excel data, I may resort to posting it on my website, or somehow converting it to HTML, but while working on it Excel is much easier.

I agree with the problem of AI building pre-requisite improvements for their specific wonders. I'm not sure of the best solution, as they are already tied to the Civ-Knowledge tech, so another tech can't substitute. I would think removing the buiding pre-requisite, and maybe use a resource as a requirement, which would at least allow them to be era-specific (copper, Iron, Saltpeter are pretty well defining moments in the civ history) if you want a specific civ ability to be delayed, but I think most should be available right away anyway. After all, it's their civ's natural ability that's being portrayed.

I knew about the cost discounts for civ traits, so that's why I know some of the traits are irrelevant, but as long as we're assigning them, we may as well assign them all. Also, even Commercial is relevant, as I beleive that's what determines which buildings get free maintenance from the Smith's-equivalent wonder (Phoenician Trade, in this case). So Expansionist and Industrious are the only traits that have no effect on improvements.

For wonders, however, they should all be represented. I may have stretched on a couple, and I'm still not sure there are enough Expansionist wonders, but I think every civ trait ought to have at least a couple chances to trigger a peaceful wonder.

My definition of UU's for this mod has been a unit that is materially different than the unit it replaces in that same upgrade slot. Many are 'flavour' units, with the same stats. I have tried to point out a few flavour units that in fact have a slight discrepancy of stats, but for the most part I didn't count them as UUs. You're right, of course, in that very few units are 'unique' to only one civ, but most civs have two 'distinct' units at least, and at least one of the two, if not both, can trigger their GA. I'm willing to accept that. The exceptions to THAT rule, as mentioned, are Dacians (3 GA-triggering units) and Phoenicians (2 units, but neither can trigger a GA), and if there are any unit changes, I'd start with those 2.

The other unit changes are pretty simple, either deleting or adding certain civs from the 'base' unit list so they don't have 2 units in the same slot, or worse, are left out of a unit class by mistake.

 

[Justus II]

I've finished updating the TAM Stats Excel file for version 2.3. I haven't heard any response from Thamis, so I'm not sure whether he's going to be making an update any time soon, and I'll be out of town with limited net access for the next couple weeks, so I'm posting this now. I haven't been able to successfully translate it to Word format, if I have time tomorrow I may try to post screen-shots of the different pages, but with the small type fonts and 'shrink-to-fit' settings in Excel, I don't know how readable they will be outside the program. They do each nicely print on a single page, however.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

I've finished updating the TAM Stats Excel file for version 2.3. I haven't heard any response from Thamis, so I'm not sure whether he's going to be making an update any time soon, and I'll be out of town with limited net access for the next couple weeks, so I'm posting this now. I haven't been able to successfully translate it to Word format, if I have time tomorrow I may try to post screen-shots of the different pages, but with the small type fonts and 'shrink-to-fit' settings in Excel, I don't know how readable they will be outside the program. They do each nicely print on a single page, however.

Isn't there a way to save it as an html file? (or maybe that's just graphs?)

If i get around to it, i'll download the excel viewer and check it out. What version of excel are you using?

I'm almost done with the civilopedia file. Another day or 2 and i will consider it done and post it. It's still going to need a lot of TAM specific building and unit descriptions but i did steal some from the conquests.

Thamis could just be waiting to see how far we go with this.

 

[Justus II]

OK, I've figured out how to save the individual worksheets as web pages, and linked them to a page from my website. You can view the individual sheets there, but I'm not making any guarantees about how they will look printed. The full XLS file is there for download also. Let me know if you have any problems reading the sheets, I can read them all in my browser (IE6.0). The sheet itself was done in Excel 2000. Let me know if you see any mistakes. I will be leaving town tomorrow night, and will have limited internet access for the next 2.5 weeks, but when I return I will update with any errors or (hopefully ) with an updated TAM version!
Justus II's TAM Stats page

 

[Birdjaguar]

The spreadsheet is fabulous! I can finally compare civs easily. Great job.

 

[thamis]

I've updated the XLS file. Thanks for making that website, I'll link to it. I'll post the updated XLS here, too.

 

[thamis]

here you go