The Ancient Mediterranean MOD (TAM)

I played the PTW version over a year ago, and it's changed quite a bit since then, so it's not a good comparison. In working on the unit tree, I notice that most of the unit stats have increased considerably, attack factors mostly have doubled (or more). While defense factors have also nearly doubled, the cost factor for defensive units has also doubled, while offensive units have not, so I think the advantage is definitely more in favor of the attackers than in previous versions.
 
It could just be because there are too many civs on the map. Babylon is agricultural and can't help but dominate the area. Egypt might do a little better if Nubia wasn't there. Maybe things will liven up when explorers and spys become available.

In the meantime, i really should at least try finishing a game to try out the later techs and units. I seem to lose interest when the Imperial Roads become available. Probably because they make the late game too easy. I'd love a mod that was this well thought out but remained 'ancient' the whole game.

Another thought... the communal corruption in C3C 1.22 is practically nonexistant. It makes no sense whatsoever to leave city states. Another reason PTW might be better.

The only defense you need is to protect against 'sneak' attacks or amphib assaults. Too bad the barbs don't use the amphib ability they have.
 
watorrey: The points you noted are all pretty much unwanted errors that occurred when moving from PTW to C3C. Looks like I will have to make YET ANOTHER version. *sigh*

Babylon: Yes, Babylon always leads tech-wise, because there are two rivers nearby. No other civ has that many rivers. Babylon is low on shield production though, and therefore usually not such a big military threat. Too bad the AI seldomly fights wars amongst themselves...
Being outside the Middle East makes being in the tech lead much harder, but is more rewarding later on in the game, because the land is better if the forests are removed.
 
If you are seriously considering another version i would be happy to help, if needed. I just need to be told what you want. Email or PM would work.


One thing to think about for a new c3c version... the ai never ever, ever, never, uses armies... even if you give them to the ai as a free by product of a wonder they are useless in the ai hands. Once the human has an army, he can walk all over the ai. Consider removing armies from the mod entirely.
 
I think armies are fine because the human is *supposed* to run over the AI. The player plays to win, not to lose. If you want a challenge, play on higher difficulty levels. I think TAM is difficult enough. Of course there are cracks who can play on Deity, but most people can't. Also, armies have been greatly reduced in TAM (6 cities per army).
I cannot upload a newer version until next week. Until then, if you like, you can work on the MOD in any way you want. Adding units would be cool, there are quite a few new awesome animations out there (thinking of Achilles here, as well as the new Arab flavour units), and you can correct all the bugs in the editor, too.
Do whatever you like, but post what you change. ;)
 
I need to figure out how to setup a different scenerio folder so i have both the changed and unchanged versions. I wouldn't be comfortable adding units at this point in time and would tend towards fixing/changing things that already exist.

Since the animated leaderheads sound to be a longer term item, i'll teach myself how to install them and make them work.
 
You can create a new scenario folder by just copying it and then changing the folder in the scenario options of the .biq files (better copy those too).

You can already create a TAM 2.4 folder, that would be best. Then copy the biq files and change the TAM 2.3 entry to TAM 2.4 in the scenario options.
 
How do you ensure the ruleset is the same between the different .biq files?
I'm guessing we work on one and import either the maps or the rules to the others.

N/M... i figured it out :)
 
That's great to hear that there will be an updated version, I agree with Watorrey at this point, I'd focus on fixing things in the current version first. I will try to post a list of things that looked odd in the editor today, as well as some suggestions for changing the civ traits of some wonders and improvements, and some unit upgrade issues.

I also did a test of several of the government types last night on a save game I had, and I will try to compile the results. Merchant Oligarchy is a very nice government if you're not a big warmonger.
 
thamis said:
Civ traits will not be changed. Sorry. We've put a LOT of consideration into the traits.
Sorry if I didn't explain it correctly, I meant the traits associated with some of the wonders, not the traits assigned to the civs. For example, no wonders have the Agricultural or Seafaring tags, as they do in normal Conquests. It would allow those Civ types to trigger a peaceful Golden Age like the others.
 
OK, here's a spreadsheet image from a comparison I did on a recent save game. I was playing TAM 2.3, Large Med map, as Rome on Emperor. The save was from 140BC, IIRC, I had just clicked through 6 turns of anarchy, saved, then hit end turn and selected different governments and got the stats, without optimizing, so your results could vary!

At this point, I controlled all of Italy, all of the former Greek (Mycenaean) lands, the nearby islands (Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, Crete), and had begun my invasion of Carthage, with about half their cities, so I was definitely seeing some max corruption at the frontiers. I had already built the Pantheon and Forum Romanum (Republic only) to reduce corruption, and about half my towns have courthouses, at least those that could get to 2-3 shields with it. No City Guards yet, though.

In the spreadsheet, I listed how many towns/citys/metros, my unit count and building maintenance cost. Then I listed the stats for each government type on the first turn out of anarchy. Total trade from cities is from the F1 screen, as is the corruption amount (shown below). Note, that the trade from cities amount is the non-corrupt total, so don't subtract the corruption amount, I just included those numbers and % as a comparison. The shields total is from the F11 screen, as total MFG = total non-corrupt shields.

You can see that Net Income, (whether in science or taxes) is comparable between Republic, City State, or Merchant Oligarchy. The trade bonus applies to all three, even though total corruption is higher in Republic. Note that I had been running Republic before the test, so my cities are 'optimized' for Republic, with core cities having most trade/science improvements to multiply the income there, while larger outlying cities do not. Given time to optimize the trade buildings for communal corruption, I think they would both improve. Sheilds, on the other hand, is a big difference. The communal govs give 62 more shields per turn, an increase of nearly 20%, and that's even with Smithy/slave markets in my core cities. For any large empire, I think that the communal govs are going to be more effective in the long run. Between the 2, I tend to think Merchant Oligarchy would be better unless you are a total war monger. As you can see, the savings from building maintenance makes up for the extra unit costs already. And this is a little misleading, as I have Temple of Zeus, Mil Training, and Harbor of Carthage, so I'm already not paying maintenance on harbors, barracks, or temples. Add those in, and you'd see a bigger difference in favor of Merch. Oligarchy. They also get the fastest workers, so I could afford to merge some more of those in and reduce unit costs.

Also see the note on Empire, with the first-turn forced resettlement, it's not a very accurate comparison, but I'd have to play them each through another 20 turns or more to bring the populations back in line, so I wasn't really able to test it. The unit support is HUGE, even with fewer cities/metros, but the lack of trade bonus is more than enough to offset that. Oddly, it seems that Empire would be good for a smaller empire trying to support a large military, the other govs seem to be able to support a decent military as long as you get enough cities.

Anyway, just some quick analysis, let me know if you spot any mistakes or have any questions! (BTW, I'm still in Republic for now in my real game, but I may switch to the Merchants after looking at this!).
 

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OK, here's my working copy of the stats file, updated for TAM 2.3 C3C. I have the Civilization, Improvements, and Terrain pages done. The CivAbility page is also done, except I decided to add the Silk Road stages, so they haven't been filled in yet. Finally, I'm working on a new unit tree, but diagraming all the unit upgrade paths will take a while, and many new flavour units have been added, so it's taking longer than I thought. But here's the working copy. All settings are taken from the editor. Let me know if you have any questions or note any mistakes.
 
Ziggurats are improvements, not a wonder.

First of all, you have an incredible number of cities and metropoles! No wonder that you've got such an income... Is such a number of cities normal? I never managed to get that many.

Maybe we should reduce the free unit support in most governments, that's my observation from your chart. It is also important to note that in Empire & Monarchy you can wage war as much as you like, whereas all other governments will become problematic.

Also, what about Theocracy? I always wanted to know how good it is.
 
For me, it's a pretty normal city placement, I try to keep 3-4 tiles between cities in Italy, and then all those in Mycenae and Dalmatian coast, and Africa, are captured, I didn't build any new ones. I will post a map, maybe when I am home for lunch, to give a better idea. I did/do emphasise growth, building on rivers or cash-rushing aquaducts for most productive cities, and I also tend to build lots of granaries.

I agree the war-weariness is an issue, although with enough luxuries and improvements, it should be manageable. I've stayed in Republic, but with the free temples, and 6 luxuries, (and Oracle from the Mycenaeans) I havent' had to use the luxury slider whatsoever. I've also usually been able to eliminate the opponent or at least end the war within 20 turns max, which keeps WW in check. I did build Aristotelic Theater as well, which also helps WW. Another factor in my low unit costs is (As you'll see from a map) that I rarely garrison non-border cities, especially now that I have Imperial roads, and I have a LOT of slave/purchased workers, so my unit count is probably lower than a similarly-sized empire that had lots of garrison units. With the higher-unit govs (Empire, Monarchy) you can afford to garrison cities, and they also provide MP benefits, which early on is nice (I did switch to Monarchy first, and then swapped to Republic when I was ready for my Golden Age).

I will also do a test of Theocracy when I get a chance, but I think the Despotic-type tile penalty will undercut any other advantages. In particular, it will cripple food production of all those irrigated grass tiles (or any Irrigated tiles with Imperial road) so not only will income suffer, but also long-term population growth.
 
The relevant numbers for Theocracy:
Trade: 499 (Corruption 266, about 35%) Production: 250 shields
Allowed units 334 :eek: No unit support cost there!
Definitely good for supporting a large army, but a significant hit to production (approx. 20% lost due to penalties) and especially food growth, I had at least 4 cities starving, and many others with no growth, due to the loss of food to tile penalties. It looks like a good government for an early warmonger, especially with a smaller empire, but for a developed nation, I think the others would be better. Empire (once you make up for the pop loss) would also generate the huge unit support.

I checked the editor, and Ziggarout is indeed an improvement, I'll fix that in the chart. One thing I've noticed, after capturing the Harbor of Carthage, is that it provides a harbor in ALL towns/cities, even those not on the coast. This is more useful than it may appear, as now many cities (like Rome) that were built one tile in from the coast, but still have some coastal tiles within their extended radius, can get the food bonus from those tiles. Also cities near lakes, can get a food from each tile.

Here's my map, from the 140BC turn, just after exiting anarchy and selecting Republic. This shows mostly Italy, you can see from the minimap I also have Greece, about half of Carthage, and a foothold in Asia Minor. As I said, I don't use a very dense city build, trying to give them room to grow, but I do micro-manage for growth pretty strongly, especially early in the game.
 

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