The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Mesix]

The downside is that you will lose the +8 to -8 diplomacy points. Religion is the single biggest modifier of diplomacy. As a player, you can use religion to accomplish your gameplay goals. By taking religion out, as one of the plans suggested, you would lose access to these modifiers, making it more difficult to make friends or enemies.

I was actually shooting for sarcasm here. I don't actually think that the game would be better without religion, but more conflict is good (and accurate for the times).

With no religion I would never be able to make enough money to wage war. I usually count on gold coming in from my shrine to finance my expansion.

 

[Sisonpyh]

I think Heros should be quite powerful, but they should have perma death once they are defeated. Does anyone else agree with this?

It seems a Hero unit would be cheapened if you can build him over and over again after he dies.

 

[Drogear]

I would like the Hero to be NOT (edit, damit I forgot that very importen word)to powerfull, would be enuff for me to have a uniqe hero units for flavour with only some edge over ordinary ones.

 

[onedreamer]

The downside is that you will lose the +8 to -8 diplomacy points. Religion is the single biggest modifier of diplomacy. As a player, you can use religion to accomplish your gameplay goals. By taking religion out, as one of the plans suggested, you would lose access to these modifiers, making it more difficult to make friends or enemies.

that modifier depends on diff level (I think) and on the charachter of the other leaders, but I've never seen it more or less than +/- 5.
Also, it is NOT true that it is the single biggest modifier of diplomacy. There are other important ones such as the gov. civic. It is also not true that without the religion modifiers it would be impossible to build a lasting bond.
This said, I anyways agree that it wouldn't be good to get rid of religions, since it is also one of the main additions in Civ4. But none ever talked about removing religions...

 

[onedreamer]

If you are going to do away with missionaries, is it possible for settlers to found a city that already has the state religion?

Interesting idea. I think someone has done it before, so we can look into it.

I think this idea is not interesting at all. The mods who have included it and are attentive to balance have removed it (for example Ultimate Strategy). My personal opinion is that this is one of the worse ideas that came from the civfanatics community, since it obviously kills 90% of the concept of religion. To have settlers that carry over religions is more or less like not having religions at all.

 

[Maniac]

that modifier depends on diff level (I think) and on the charachter of the other leaders, but I've never seen it more or less than +/- 5.

Yup. In Civ4LeaderHeads.xml you can increase the weight of other attitude affecting stuff.

This said, I anyways agree that it wouldn't be good to get rid of religions, since it is also one of the main additions in Civ4. But none ever talked about removing religions...

Indeed, only delaying them to the midgame. Having religions start somewhat later would also keep the game longer interesting IMHO, as a new element is introduced to focus upon, when the initial settlement phase is over.

 

[thamis]

No one interested in more accurate religion? Darn. I guess I'll have to found my own Improved Ancient Mediterranean (I AM ) mod when I have some more time. Could I use TAM as the basis to work from?

Meanwhile, some more random ideas...

I read that elephants aren't really used for their combat capability, but to scare the enemy. Therefore I thought, how about giving them the ability to give +10% strength to all units sharing the same square as them? Something similar to the Great General and Great Doctor mods?

Regarding religions, are you talking about more generic names? Or regarding having certain religions for certain civs?

 

[thamis]

I want to keep things as simple and non-confusing as possible. Here's my idea for heroes:

- They are a national unit and can only 1 can be around at any given time per civ
- They are an improved version of one of the CIV's unique unit and comes in at the time that the CIV was most powerful (Babylonian hero is their early UU, Germanic hero is their late UU)
- They are slightly stronger than the original unit. That means either brute strength, or several promotions
- They give a small bonus to units in its stack

 

[Connery]

First of all, good job.
Secondly, i'm having some trouble running the mod.
I've unpacked the file to the Civ4 main folder, then moved the .wbs file to the custom maps folder and the "The Ancient Mediterranean" folder to the Mods folder. I've started Civ4, chose t activate the mod and it starts but I can't see any font/writing in the menu. Here's an image:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/8153/bug0wa.jpg

By the way, i'm running 1.52 version.

 

[Greenlocke]

that modifier depends on diff level (I think) and on the charachter of the other leaders, but I've never seen it more or less than +/- 5.

Well. I'm playing a game right now where one civ (Ghandi) is +8 while another (Monty) is -8...

Also, it is NOT true that it is the single biggest modifier of diplomacy. There are other important ones such as the gov. civic.

Hmmm. Didn't realize that civics had this much effect on things. The highest civic +- I've seen has been around 6...

It is also not true that without the religion modifiers it would be impossible to build a lasting bond.

Hmmm... I seem to be misquoted. Where did I say impossible? I believe I said something like: eliminating the polytheistic religions would make it more difficult to make friends/enemies AND by eliminating these religions there would be fewer reasons to form lasting bonds. I feel both of these statement are true. Having the same religion as a civ in the early game translates into that high diplomacy rating. It goes up with time. (Or down, if your gods are 'pagan' to them)

This said, I anyways agree that it wouldn't be good to get rid of religions, since it is also one of the main additions in Civ4. But none ever talked about removing religions...

I'm glad we agree on this. And yes, Thamis did not say anything about removing religions, but:

What does this mean for TAM? Recognizing that the local pantheons are a different class of religion than zoroastrism etc, I'd simply remove them as a religions. Simply have them represented by some buildings like a temple etc which provides happiness, like the holy site now. The "universalist" religions should come later in the game, with the accompanying effects of religion spreading to other cities, and religious tensions.

This is the concept I was addressing. I don't think that the solution is the removal of religion for the first quarter/half/etc of the game. (No disrespect intended for your idea Maniac). Personally, I found the religions to be fine the way they were. I would prefer if the Egyptian/Mesopotamian/etc religions were named something which defined the religion, rather than the people who worshipped it, (ie: Cult of Sun God. -since we call one religion Christianity, even though it was founded by Jews) but this idea seems to have been swept under the rug.

 

[Greenlocke]

@Connery: Try updating to 1.61...

@Thamis: I like your idea for hero units. A very simplistic solution. Will each civ have specific heros, or will the names be drawn from a pool, like Great People.

 

[feydras]

I think this idea is not interesting at all. The mods who have included it and are attentive to balance have removed it (for example Ultimate Strategy). My personal opinion is that this is one of the worse ideas that came from the civfanatics community, since it obviously kills 90% of the concept of religion. To have settlers that carry over religions is more or less like not having religions at all.

I like the idea of religious settlers. Even better is the idea of building immigrants that function like missionaries but also add 1 population. These are being discussed in Abbamouse's Realistic Religions mod but i don't know if someone has developed them yet. Settlers and immigrants are both quite realistic ways to spread religion. I don't understand how it kills the concept of religion. I wouldn't want settlers to be the only way a religion spreads as that would remove the political dynamic of religion and as you say be like having no religions at all.

- feydras

 

[Shqype]

Regarding heroes: It sounds good to me, Thamis. But, some more still needs to be outlined.

For example, how many times can a hero be built? As a national unit, once it is killed you can rebuild it. This would mean you can potentially have 7 Achilles' as he keeps "re-spawning" on death. Or, it can be done in Python such that the first time "Heroic Epic" is built a hero unit is automatically given to the player. You can even make the unit buildable with Heroic Epic but this means that all civs would gain their hero roughly around the same time. Or, it can also be done in Python so that a civ gets its hero with the first UU that it builds.

Hopefully this has opened up some ideas on implementation ...

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Regarding heroes: [...] Or, it can also be done in Python so that a civ gets its hero with the first UU that it builds.

Can it be done so that a civ gets it's hero the first time the UU wins a battle?

 

[thamis]

First of all, good job.
Secondly, i'm having some trouble running the mod.
I've unpacked the file to the Civ4 main folder, then moved the .wbs file to the custom maps folder and the "The Ancient Mediterranean" folder to the Mods folder. I've started Civ4, chose t activate the mod and it starts but I can't see any font/writing in the menu. Here's an image:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/8153/bug0wa.jpg

By the way, i'm running 1.52 version.

Updating to 1.61 fixes that problem. 1.71 is made for 1.61.

 

[thamis]

Can it be done so that a civ gets it's hero the first time the UU wins a battle?

This is a cool idea.

Even though I don't mind having Achilles being resurrected by the gods whenever he is killed.

 

[Belizan]

This is a cool idea.

Even though I don't mind having Achilles being resurrected by the gods whenever he is killed.

If you give each hero units a specific list of names, it should walk down them, so you won't get any rebirths of Achilles going on 8).


So, I mostly wanted to put up a quick post to say how much I am enjoying TMA. It is currently my favorite mod for Civ 4. I think it is excellently laid out.

I have noticed that smithy's don't seem to work. Also (this may be intentional), but there is a certain dearth of late era health buildings. It's not clear to me that this is really a problem, but it is definitely the case that early on, I feel constrained by happiness. By the Imperial Age, health is much more of an issue.

Personally, more then heroes or religion modifications, which seem unnecessary, I might look at expanding the naval unit base a bit. Either way, as is, I think TMA is already very solid. Great work! 8).

 

[Shqype]

I have noticed that smithy's don't seem to work.

What do you mean Smithy's don't seem to work?

There is only 1 smithy, and it should definitely work! I know it did in my testing. Can you provide an explanation of what you're trying to do, and what is (or isn't) happening?

 

[Belizan]

Certainly. Units built in a city with a smithy do not receive any (weapons) promotions. I'm playing as the Hittites, and I've tested it extensively 8). I thought about just fixing it myself, which I could do if you like. You may be running afoul of the Aggressive trait, but not having looked at your implementation, I couldn't say for sure.

Also, while I'm on the subject, the Aggressive trait seems overly narrow in its focus :/.

 

[Shqype]

Certainly. Units built in a city with a smithy do not receive any (weapons) promotions.

A city must have a smithy AND a city must have access to the proper resource AND the unit must be either a Medium, Heavy, or Cavalry unit. It will not work for Archers, for example.

Smithy + Copper resource gives Copper Weapons promotion
Smithy + Copper + Tin resources give Bronze Weapons promotion
Smithy + Iron resource gives Iron Weapons promotion
Smithy + Iron + Charcoal resources give Steel Weapons promotion

The only flaw in the implementation is if a unit with an inferior weapons promotion (or none at all) has been sleeping and the new upgrade is available, he will not recieve it unless he exits and re-enters the city. (In python the weapons promotion assignment is done in onUnitMove if the plot is a city with the proper Smithy + resources). However, this can be justified by saying if a unit is 'sleeping' then he's obviously not getting the weapons upgrades that his fellow patriots will be getting by going into the proper city.

TheLopez helped me make the code more efficient and in my testing it has worked well. Are you sure you have the latest version of the mod installed? I can double-check to see if any changes slipped through that I may have missed from upgrading to v1.61 compatibility...

We've made some changes to Health (and Unhealth) which should work out in a more balanced way. Expect to see them in v1.8; if not, give us suggestions on how to make it better.

Also, there are plans for expanding the Naval Base. If not this version, then possibly the next. I agree that right now it is a bit limited and more naval vessels should really be in the ancient Mediterranean. But, ideas are welcome, and would help expedite the process.

Belizan, it pleases me to read your post in which you state that TAM is your favorite mod. As a well established [python] coder of the community, such words from you really do mean alot. It's nice to hear such compliments from the "big boys" that can create something very complex with their skills. It's an honor, and the TAM team continues to work together to make this mod better with each release.