The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Mesix]

I've never been really comfortable with the whole techs reveal religions things. It leads to the supposition that some religions are superior to others because they require more advanced thinking. I would rather see all the religions, with the exception of Christianity and maybe Judism as I'm not sure it was the dominate religon for the Phoniceans (could be wrong), spawn simutaneously at the beginning of the game with appropriate civs. One bonus of playing the Egyptians might always be founding "Sun God Worship". I would even like to see the founding of Christianity more of an event or wonder based thing.

This is an interesting idea. Perhaps instead of being a Wonder or a technology, events that create and spread Christianity and/or Judism could be scripted like many of the official scenarios do with events.

In the American Revolution scenario that came packaged with the game there were several scripted events that that created a narritive that related historical events to the player and created effects within the game. The recent WWI scenario has a lot of scripted evets that add to the historical aspect of the game as well.

Perhaps around 0 AD a narritive box could appear that tells about the current events surrounding the birth of Christ. If the time period from 0-33 AD were in single years then events could unfold that bring about Christianity. At some point the religion would become available and have an appropriate founding city.

If there are set civs and cities where religions are fuonded, then the religious shrines should not be tied to the founding city. This would create too much of an advantage for the civ that gets the religion gifted to them. Instead the religious great person shold be able to build a shrine for any religion that is present in a city and the shrines should be treated as wonders so that they are not duplicated.

This all sounds like a lot of work, but in the end it could create a unique feel for TAM that sets it apart from Vanilla and other mods and creates a more enjoyable game as well as more historical accuracy.

 

[Mesix]

Another idea would be to have each civ be assigned one of five or so various "aspects" of polythesitic faith (War, Sun, Nature, etc.). Do away with the "first to discover founds X religion" in the tech tree and have each civ found their assigned "aspect" of religion upon discovery of mysticism. The founded religious "aspects" would not be unique since more than one civ would have each aspect. Religion in cities could be limited to one until polythism is discovered. At this point more than one religious aspect begins to spread to each city.

This would add a little more depth to each of the civs, and create similarities and differences that can translate to +/- modifiers to diplomacy early on. The "State Religion" function might need to be reworked or removed all together to make the ancient polythestic system more usable.

 

[Aeon221]

About religions, anyone remember the even older one that ripped off the Babylonian myths, added in a touch of monotheism, and called it a new religion? Syncretism is the spice of religion, just like cultural diffusion for the rest of it.

/endtangent

The real reason I came was to say "Hawt Combat Model" and suggest that you put up some info on the main screen. I was eh on this mod (because I'm not a big fan of playing in the Ancient era) until I noticed just how well you guys did combat. A brief heads up about it would go a long way.

All in all, very nice job!

Now, back to Egypt and the annihilation of the world.

 

[Shqype]

About religions, anyone remember the even older one that ripped off the Babylonian myths, added in a touch of monotheism, and called it a new religion? Syncretism is the spice of religion, just like cultural diffusion for the rest of it.

/endtangent

The real reason I came was to say "Hawt Combat Model" and suggest that you put up some info on the main screen. I was eh on this mod (because I'm not a big fan of playing in the Ancient era) until I noticed just how well you guys did combat. A brief heads up about it would go a long way.

All in all, very nice job!

Now, back to Egypt and the annihilation of the world.

Could you explain what you like about combat and our "hawt combat model?" Do you have any thoughts for improving it?

 

[Craterus22]

Originally Posted by Craterus22

CIVILIZATION4 caused an invalid page fault in
module MSVCR71.DLL at 017f:7c3428fa.
Registers:
EAX=012bf369 CS=017f EIP=7c3428fa EFLGS=00010206
EBX=83234000 SS=0187 ESP=012bf2d0 EBP=00cb4ecc
ECX=00bea380 DS=0187 ESI=8323a000 FS=10d7
EDX=81e62d78 ES=0187 EDI=83234000 GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
8a 06 83 c6 01 3a c2 74 0a 84 c0 75 f3 5e 5b 5f
Stack dump:
012bf304 83234000 00000000 006a62cb 83234000 00bea380 05e0f010 067f00c0 00cb4ecc 00bbe934 819bfd3c 067f51e0 7c34214f 0109d384 00000000 7c3479ad

The above error seems to occur during the xml part of the mod load process...

I have never played this mod before, but other mods have worked ok for me... I have tried installing this in both the my games folder path and actual game install path.

any ideas?

Also, how large is the map?

No clue what that is. Make sure you have Civilization 1.61 installed, and the latest version of TAM.

The map size is roughly standard size.

at the time of the post - i had a newly installed version of civ4 with the current patch (of course) and I had just downloaded TAM

anyone else have any ideas?

 

[onedreamer]

Having Egyptian Pantheon or the cult of Ra in TAM of course fits the timeframe, but to me it doesn't feel good when Vercingetorix is the founder. He could on the other hand very well be the founder of worship of the wargod or the sungod.

Well I spoke of Cult of the Sun God, not Cult of Ra...

About Afrodite, are you saying that the Greeks took that goddess from the Phoenicians, or simply "further developed" the myth about her from Phoenician myths/beliefs? I contest the first claim, but believe in the 2nd. We all know where Aferdita really came from

from a shell
Well I think this part of the myth of Afrodites may have phoenician origins. I should research more.

I've never been really comfortable with the whole techs reveal religions things. It leads to the supposition that some religions are superior to others because they require more advanced thinking. [...] One bonus of playing the Egyptians might always be founding "Sun God Worship".

I'd rather call it different thinking than advanced thinking. I don't like the word Worship when we speak of organized religions. To me, worship doesn't give the idea of an organized religion but something tribal. I think the word cult fits better.

 

[onedreamer]

Another idea would be to have each civ be assigned one of five or so various "aspects" of polythesitic faith (War, Sun, Nature, etc.). Do away with the "first to discover founds X religion" in the tech tree and have each civ found their assigned "aspect" of religion upon discovery of mysticism. The founded religious "aspects" would not be unique since more than one civ would have each aspect.

Well I had proposed advanced religious buildings that give different boni. But this is also an interesting idea.

Religion in cities could be limited to one until polythism is discovered. At this point more than one religious aspect begins to spread to each city.

Doesn't make much sense, since polytheism was born (in reality and in TAM) before monotheism.

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Having re-read the posts from yesterday I realize that my attempt to use humor to prove a point didn't turn out well. I have edited that post so hopefully there won't be any more misunderstandings.

I have tried to point towards the spiritual aspects of religion and how that can affect the experience of TAM when implemented in the game. Most responses were unfortunatly of a cultural kind. Cultural aspects matter, but we must not confuse them with the spiritual. If one person goes to temple on a tuesday and the other person on a thursday, then there is a cultural difference in their worship. They can even call their god(s) by different names since they speak different languages. Still just cultural differences.
If their fundamental spiritual perception of the world is similar, then it's the same religion. One people might worship the sun as a ball of fire in the sky, while another nurture a myth about some fellow that drives a carriage with a bright golden shield on it. A third people might say -No, no it's not a carriage, the god is riding a horse and holds the shield with his arm. Still, they all stress the fact that without that yellow thing up there, there would be no life down here.

Thamis has perhaps already made up his mind, but since I'm interested in hearing your points of view, I'm asking you this question anyway, regarding religion in The Ancient Mediterranean Mod.

Do you think religion should be implemented from a philosophical/spiritual point of view, giving each civ in the game the chance of being regarded as the founder of a religion? (As it is now, v1.8)

Or, do you think religions should be assigned to their most famous cultures (Greek Pantheon, Egyptian Pantheon etc), locked to that specific civ, making the basis of the game very alike the way we look upon history?

 

[Ick of the East]

Although I don't know much of naval warfare, it seems pretty intuitive to me that a defending ship has huge strategic advantages on an attacking one, unless this one comes out of the fog within a few meters from the target. An unlikely scenario.

With both oared galleys and sailing ships, the attacker would have the advantage.

With oared galleys, the main method of attack would be to get up speed and ram the opponent with your armored bow. The attacker has a huge structural advantage here. Another way would be to attack with flaming arrows or Greek fire, which you would only do when the wind was in your favor, and not the defender's.

With sailing ships, you don't innitiate attack unless you have the "weather gauge" - that is, when the wind is blowing from your direction towards your opponent's. This allows you the choice of keeping pace with your opponent, attacking him, or letting him go - depending on your evaluation of the situation. Whereas your opponent's only options are to try to flee or to stand and take your attack.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_gauge

 

[saint1979]

This mod dont work for me. I got no resources on the map. I got the latest patch 1.61 and TAM 1.8. I installed this MOD just like it said that i should do on the download site. Other mods work fine, its just this one that is going crazy on me.

What can be wrong?

 

[thamis]

This mod dont work for me. I got no resources on the map. I got the latest patch 1.61 and TAM 1.8. I installed this MOD just like it said that i should do on the download site. Other mods work fine, its just this one that is going crazy on me.

What can be wrong?

Try double-clicking the map file in CIV4\PublicMaps. If it's not there, you didn't install the mod correctly.

 

[thamis]

I like the idea of certain civs getting historical religions. The only problem is: How do we deal with Holy Cities and Holy Shrines then? I've been thinking about this a lot, and I haven't been able to come up with a useful answer.

Also: Should the religions be there from the start, or should they appear at a certain date or with a certain technology? Who gets the Holy City then?

 

[saint1979]

Yep, sry, the mod is working allright now

 

[Pvblivs]

Should there be a holy city anyway for polytheistic religions? What was the holy city for Greek polytheism? What was it for Egyptian?

For Judaism, Sun God or Christianity it is easy to say what city is holy. Though for Christianity it seems - today - rather ambigous.

The founder of a religion could be gifted a great prophet instead of a holy city...

 

[davbenbak]

@Thamis-my thoughts on your holy city queston. Is there any way to script the create holy shrine option to work in any city that has a religion and not just the city in which it was founded? That way the first civ to generate a Great Profit gets the shrine.

 

[SrWilliam]

Excellent Mod, I play it much more often than the regular game.

After reading hundreds of posts on religion I wanted to post my hope and opinion that TAM does not become a Mod that over emphasizes ancient religion and under emphasizes ancient warfare.

I think Thamis and Co. have done a great job tweaking the CIV religious system. I like the generic names. I like the non-proliferation of early religions; though if possible, I think if you found a religion you should be able to expand the religion into you home cities with missionaries.


Personally, if Thamis and Co. are going to commit further energies to what’s already a brilliant mod, I don’t see and any need to rewrite tons of code on the religious system. I would rather see energies devoted to:

-The continued tweaking of balance between resources, building, wonders and units.

-A bigger map, hopefully with more nations so that Carthaginian and German growth are better challenged.

-Civilopidia improvements and/or documentation updates

-Improved AI local/regional aggressiveness, perhaps a few more leaders need to be coded as aggressive? I have seen some games (on Monarch) be rather light on wars.

-Perhaps improve the research time line to prevent the last 100 turns being nearly tech free. Then again, if you play the regular CIV game to 2050 you are bound to run out of techs so perhaps things are fine as is?

-The Hero’s concept sounds like an excellent expansion to the MOD.


I personally think any serious religious rewrite should be on the very bottom of a TAM wish list of improvements/needs or not be there at all.

 

[thamis]

Glad you like the MOD. For version 1.9 we're going to still have no missionaries, but religions will be able to spread to cities with a religion already in it.

The vast majority of changes goes on balance. I've got a huge list of changes... Here's a preview of what's to come:

- SDK: Implement new City Founding AI
- SDK: Implement marching and terrain attack (if ready)
------ Light units get 100% defense, Medium units: 50%, Heavy units: 25%
- SDK: Religion spread to max 3 cities (remove temple school / monastery if implemented)
- SDK: Is it possible to make the AI use trade ships?


- PYTHON: Fix trade ship algorithm. Right now, distance and city size play a very minor role. It is always better to go to the closest city around for the trade mission.
--------- Suggested calculation: 10 + city size + tile distance + 2 * (number of resources available in that city)

- CIVIC: Barbarism: change to low upkeep
- CIVIC: Forum: High Upkeep, +100% Birth Rate (not extra cost per unit)
- CIVIC: Path of the Mystics: change to low upkeep
- CIVIC: Plutocracy: remove extra upkeep per unit
- CIVIC: City States: change to medium upkeep
- CIVIC: Hereditary Rule: change to low upkeep
- CIVIC: Organized religion: +2 culture per state religion building (instead of being able to build missionaries)

- TERRAIN: Remove coastal defence bonus
- TERRAIN: Oasis: +1 health in nearby city (like the forest +0.25)
- TERRAIN: Flood Plains: -0.25 health

- UNIT: Include new unit graphics from other mail (the lost one)
- UNIT: Rename Lydian Light Cavalry (UU Lydia) to Ionian Cavalry
- UNIT: Rename Elite Light Cavalry (UU Media) to Mountain Riders (Str 6, 1 First Strike, +40% vs Medium Units, 40% withdraw chance)
- UNIT: Horseman, Light Cavalry, Heavy Cavalry & Ionian Cavalry: +35% vs Medium Units
- UNIT: Mounted Javelineer: +35% vs Heavy Units
- UNIT: Chariot, Horseman Light Cavalry, Elite Light Cavalry, Heavy Cavalry, Three-Man Chariot: +50% vs siege units
- UNIT: Iron Swordsman (UU Hittites): change to +40% city attack
- UNIT: Immortal (UU Persia): change to +25% city attack
- UNIT: Archer, Composite Archer, Babylonian Archer, Babylonian Composite Archer, Bowman: change to 35% withdraw chance, remove hills defense bonus, increase collateral dmg to max 4 units, 60% of original catapult collateral dmg, max collateral dmg 15% of unit str, reduce all strengths by 1
- UNIT: Sappers, Ram, Siege Tower, Catapult: increase city bombard dmg by +10% each
- UNIT: Catapult: Reduce strength to 3, 80% withdraw chance, max collateral dmg 10% of unit strength
- UNIT: Fire Catapult: Reduce strength to 4, 80% withdraw chance, max collateral dmg 20% of unit strength
- UNIT: Fierce Horse Archer: same as normal horse archer, but with Blitz promotion and +1 first strike
- UNIT: Fierce Heavy Horse Archer: same as normal h horse archer, but with Blitz promotion and +1 first strike
- UNIT: Rename: Fierce Horse Archer -> Steppe Rider, Fierce Heavy Horse Archer -> Steppe Marauder

- BUILDING: Alchemist: -1 health, +25% science, allows 1 scientist, double production speed with Tin
- BUILDING: Academy: +10% science, +1 culture, allows 1 scientist
- BUILDING: Observatory: +15% science, allows nothing else
- BUILDING: Library: +15% science, +2 culture, allows 1 scientist
- BUILDING: Caravan House: +40% trade route yield, +1 happy from spices, incense, dye, allows 2 merchants
- BUILDING: Grocer: +10% gold, +1 health from olives, fruit, wine, allows nothing else
- BUILDING: Market: +20% gold, +1 happy from ivory, gold, fur, opium, amber
- BUILDING: Cemetary: +1 health, +1 culture, allows nothing else
- BUILDING: Rename all monasteries to Temple Schools
- BUILDING: Temple School: allows constructing missionaries, +1 beaker, +1 gold
- BUILDING: Christian Cathedral -> rename to "Cathedral", spreads Christianity, double production speed with Marble
- BUILDING: Christian Temple -> rename to "Church", spreads Christianity
- BUILDING: Ziggurat -> rename to "Temple of An"
- BUILDING: Mesopotamian Cathedral -> rename to "Ziggurat", +2 culture, double production speed with Clay
- BUILDING: Druidic Temple -> rename to "Monolith"
- BUILDING: Druidic Cathedral -> rename to "Henge", +1 unit xp, double production speed with Stone
- BUILDING: Egyptian Temple -> rename to "Temple of Horus"
- BUILDING: Egyptian Cathedral -> rename to "Temple of Amun-Re", +1 beaker, double production speed with Gold
- BUILDING: Greek Temple -> rename to "Temple of Apollo"
- BUILDING: Greek Cathedral -> rename to "Temple of Zeus", +1 hammer, double production speed with Silver
- BUILDING: Jewish Temple -> keep name
- BUILDING: Jewish Cathedral -> rename to "Synagogue", +1 gold, double production speed with Gems
- BUILDING: Zoroastrian Temple -> rename to "Shrine to Ahura Mazdah"
- BUILDING: Zoroastrian Chathedral -> rename to "Temple of Fire", allows 2 scientists, double production speed with Incense
- BUILDING: Well: reduce cost to 20
- BUILDING: Smithy: -2 health, allows 2 engineers (increase AI build importance!)
- BUILDING: Aqueduct: double production speed with Stone
- BUILDING: Hospital: double production speed with Flax
- BUILDING: Slave Market: -1 happy, +1 gold, +2 free citizens
- BUILDING: Harbor: +2 XP to naval units
- BUILDING: Cemetary: double production speed with Flax
- BUILDING: Walls, Palisades, Fortress: remove reference to Gunpowder units
- BUILDING: Garden: +1 happy, +1 health

- WONDER: The Oracle -> rename to "The Oracle of Delphi"
- WONDER: The Great Ziggurat -> rename to "The Tower of Babel", double production speed with Clay
- WONDER: The Great Library -> rename to "The Library of Alexandria"
- WONDER: The Pyramids -> rename to "The Pyramids of Gizeh", double production speed with Stone
- WONDER: The Temple of Artemis: double production speed with Marble
- WONDER: Plato's Academy: requires Academy (the normal building)
- WONDER: The Hanging Gardens: double production speed with Clay (instead of Stone)
- WONDER: Mesopotamian Shrine -> rename to "High Temple of Fire"
- WONDER: Druidic Shrine -> rename to "Great Henge"
- WONDER: Egyptian Shrine -> rename to "Temple of Karnak"
- WONDER: The Parthenon -> rename to "Statue of Zeus", same stats, double production speed with Ivory (instead of Marble)
- WONDER: Greek Shrine -> rename to "The Parthenon"

- RELIGION: Jupiter Worship -> rename to "Olympian Gods"
- RELIGION: Moon Worship -> rename to "Druidism"
- RELIGION: Sky Worship -> rename to "Mesopotamian Gods"
- RELIGION: Sun Worship -> rename to "Heliopolitan Gods"
- RELIGION: Heliopolitan Gods is founded with Polytheism
- RELIGION: Mesopotamian Gods is founded with Astrology
- RELIGION: Olympian Gods is founded with Priesthood
- RELIGION: Christianity is founded with Christianity (not Theology!)
- RELIGION: Modify SPREAD: Druidism: 10%, Mespotamian: 30%, Olympian: 35%, Heliopolitan: 25%, Zoroastrianism: 45%, Judaism: 40%, Christianity: 80%

- IMRPOVEMENT: Grove: Use Winery graphics on map, use Grove symbol (as in Pedia) as button

- PROMOTION: Steel Weapons: +30% strength
- PROMOTION: Flanking I & II: Allow for archers

- TECH: Road building gives +2 road movement (instead of +1)

#########
GRAPHICS:
#########

- Light Cavalry (http://www.jan.vandercrabben.name/tamdev/notarzt.design/units/lightcav.rar)
- Heavy Cavalry (use Keshik)
- Sapper (http://www.jan.vandercrabben.name/tamdev/notarzt.design/units/sapper.rar
- Infantry (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169039)
- Armoured Javelineer (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=169039)
- Heavy Infantry (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=162490 (the maceman with the sword graphic))
- Berserk (http://www.jan.vandercrabben.name/tamdev/notarzt.design/units/berserk_new.rar)
- Huscarl (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166734)
- Fire Catapult (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165843)
- Fire Archer (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165843)
- Roman flavour heavy spearman (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163827)
- Replace swordsman graphics with (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159818)
- Babylonian Archer & Babylonian Comp Archer (http://www.jan.vandercrabben.name/tam/civ4/tamdev/notarzt.design/units/babyarcher.rar)
- Bowman (http://www.jan.vandercrabben.name/tamdev/notarzt.design/units/bowman.rar)
- Skirmisher: Is BenGee's skirmisher with shirt in? On the FTP...

##########
ADDENDUM 1
##########

- Ziggurat graphics: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=165207
- Monolith graphics: (Stele) http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=166927
- Henge graphics: same as Holy Site
- Great Henge graphics: same as Stonehenge

 

[davbenbak]

@Sr William-Amen! After reading Thamis last post it seems as though your prayers were answered. OK, no more emphasizing religions in my posts.

 

[onedreamer]

With both oared galleys and sailing ships, the attacker would have the advantage.

With oared galleys, the main method of attack would be to get up speed and ram the opponent with your armored bow. The attacker has a huge structural advantage here.

on the impact eventually, but not on the manouver, since they had to start rowing from a distance to get up the speed...

Another way would be to attack with flaming arrows or Greek fire, which you would only do when the wind was in your favor, and not the defender's.

I seriously doubt you can have such a ballistic precision with firing arrows from a trireme...

With sailing ships, you don't innitiate attack unless you have the "weather gauge" - that is, when the wind is blowing from your direction towards your opponent's. This allows you the choice of keeping pace with your opponent, attacking him, or letting him go - depending on your evaluation of the situation. Whereas your opponent's only options are to try to flee or to stand and take your attack.

yeah but in Civ there isn't any wind gauge, plus we're speaking of medieval naval warfare here. A naval battle initiates when 2 ships come into contact, which is how it works in Civ. This doesn't mean that the "attacker" (in civ terms, the ship that moved into the "defender" square) is necessarily the one that will have the advantages you listed.

 

[Mesix]

Wow...that's a big list of changes. I can't wait to try out v 1.9. When is it expected to be finished?