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The answer is in the wonders?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Hyoga, Jun 9, 2007.

  1. Hyoga

    Hyoga Chieftain

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    We have five new wonders with BTS.

    Two of them are being included because they complete the list of the Seven Wonders of the World. Those are, obviously, the Statue of Zeus and the Mausoleum of Maussollos.

    Then we have three other wonders remaining: the Cristo Redentor, the Moai Statues, and the Shwedagon Paya.

    If we stop thinking about the countries we are from for a moment, stop thinking about our heritage, and stop thinking about what we saw in history class (you can continue all that later), the I believe these are indications of the remaining new civilizations.

    Firaxis works on representation. You all know that.

    Considering how those three wonders match directly to the areas of the world which are truly lacking representation (South America, Oceania/Polynesia, and Indochina), I do not think it a stretch of the imagination for the three civs that still need confirmation to come from those areas.

    There is logic there. Abandon your wants for now and look at this objectively and think about it from the perspective of a company who wants to sell a game worldwide.

    From a business perspective, this makes more sense than including another European or Mesopotamian civ, regardless of their greatness.

    That's the theory I'm sticking with. Your thoughts?
     
  2. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    Yes except Burma is not Indochina.
     
  3. Panda

    Panda Metal head

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    The 'worldwide business strategy' approach doesn't quite work since both South America as well as SE Asia hotbeds of software piracy. Also, take a look at the income in those countries, and tell me how many of them can afford PCs. I know those areas are heavily populated and there are prosperous people as well, but I think you overestimate the capacity of the respective markets.

    EDIT: Come to think of it, the same is more or less true for Eastern Europe. :hmm:
     
  4. Rob (R8XFT)

    Rob (R8XFT) Ancient Briton Super Moderator

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    If it meant that Brazil, Burma and Polynesia were the remaining three civs, I'd be okay with that.
     
  5. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

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    You're forgetting that Angkor Wat was in, yet there was no civ to represent it.

    Even so, if wonders do indicate what civs will be in, this would be my guess:

    Cristo Redentor -> Portugal. Brazil just happened to be a colony of it.

    Moai Statues -> possibility for a Polynesian civ, but it could still just be another Angkor Wat.

    The Shwedagon Paya -> Siam. I think there is a lot of circumstantial evidence already that Siam will be in, but only time will prove me right or wrong...
     
  6. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

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    Shwedagon Paya is actually in Burma ;) (though many pagodas in Burma are built with gold looted from Ayutthaya. Not Shwedagon though, it was already a few centuries old when Ayutthaya was sacked.).
     
  7. Gaius Octavius

    Gaius Octavius Deity

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    Well, I have some other (circumstantial) information that leads me to think Siam might be in... but of course, I'm completely in the dark, just like the rest of you. :D
     
  8. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    it is part of it, though.

    anyhow, i wouldn't say that the addition of wonders guarantees a civilizations inclusion. look at civ3 - there was Copernicus' Observatory, but no Poland, for example.

    but i think Firaxis is starting to try to expand the game beyond its Eurocentric and Americo-centric centricity... maybe just wonders now, next time it'll be civs. :D

    but, as Gaius Octavius just said above me...

     
  9. Rusty Edge

    Rusty Edge Deity

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    While I agree with Panda that this doesn't make business sense, and with Gaius about Portugal, I think you're on to something.

    I think they are trying to be Universal and inclusive . The Indochinese civ is up for grabs. They could be backfilling the Khmer instead .

    My desire for naval development overides my objectivity on civs at the prospect of seeing Polynesian cattamarans.
     
  10. Train

    Train Warlord

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    Portugal have no wonders. So the Christ Redeemer fits the portuguese lack of wonder.

    I also miss a nation (a southeast asian one) to represent Angor War.

    Overall, it will be good to see Brasil or a Polynesian civ in the game!
     
  11. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Think about it logically why should Brazil be in instead of Chile, Argentina or Venezuela? Venezuela has Simon Bolivar, Chile and Argentina are to other contestents a bit better then Brazil. Brazil only has Soccer, Population and Land.
     
  12. Train

    Train Warlord

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    You can see the Latin America (The spanish one) as one (or maybe 2 or 3), but Brazil is a completely different nation, Argentina and Chile could be the same nation, and Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador too, and they all speak spanish, they all descend from Incas and Spanish (except for Argentina). Brazil no, Brazil descend from native americans, africans, to spanish, portuguese, europeans, and asians (arabians and east asians). So, I choose Brazil for its unique culture, if it is to have a South American nation, the best choice is Brazil.

    I'm not saying that Brazil substitutes a Hispanic south american nation. But if it is to have only one nation from South America, I prefer Brazil.
     
  13. Edungeon

    Edungeon Flying~

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    South America is best represented with 3 civs, Grand Colombia, Argentina and Brazil.

    Brazil is totally diferent from the others SA Nations, starting with our independence, that was made by portuguese noblemen and not from the population. Brazil was an Empire... =p not a democracy.

    But if we can't have all 3, it is better to have nothing, and Spain and Portugal representing SA.
     
  14. SkippyT

    SkippyT Who?

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    Brazil has never been of importance to the world, hasn't led anything, never done anything amazing, magnificent or great.
    Illiteracy is great, still today, many live on the streets and Brazil is no way a superpower in the modern world. It never has been.
    Brazil has nothing to do in the Civilization game.
     
  15. Hyoga

    Hyoga Chieftain

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    In response to Panda,

    While the piracy thing is most definitely true, the income thing is less so. South America especially has a large line between wealthy and poor and there are plenty of wealthy people who purchase PC’s there. Same thing for countries like Mexico and South Africa. And I’m certain that people in New Zealand and Australia (a good deal of whom can certainly afford PCs and most likely already own Civ) would appreciate a civilization that more closely represents their part of the world, as there currently is none.

    It makes more business sense to expand on what’s available so as to attract a broader market. I’m willing to bet that the South African market greatly appreciated the Zulus. Whether they live in South Africa, or are immigrants in another country.

    There’s definitely a large enough population of South American immigrants in the States to see them as a market. Same for Polynesians in New Zealand and Australia.

    The Angkor Wat, to me, is just another proof (on top of all the ones we already have) that we’re getting a South East Asian civ.

    To others,

    As for which SA civ to include, I’ve already made a case for Brazil before. I really don’t want to regurgitate it again.

    Suffice it to say that the Incas represent for Chile and the Western South America, that Brazil is the only real Eastern South America contender, and that you, TheLastOne36, know absolutely nothing about Brazil at all if you think all it has is soccer and population. You espeacially know nothing at all about South American history if you think Argentina and Venezuela had more impact on the continent than Brazil.

    I'm gonna stop there before I start repeating myself. Go do some research before you start saying things you know nothing about.
     
  16. Hyoga

    Hyoga Chieftain

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    Damn, and here I was thinking that the Zulu, the Carthaginians, the Mali, and the Vikings were superpowers.

    Man, I had no idea that the Zulu had such dramatic impact in the world.

    I mean, I know they had massive effects on their specific region of the world, just like Brazil did, but I had no idea that they had changed the world so much. :rolleyes:

    Wake up man. No Southeast Asian civ was ever a world power. They did, however, dramatically effect their region.

    Oh snap!! So did Brazil! So did the Polynesians! So did the Zulu! So did the Mali!
     
  17. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    look, im not Brazilian or anything, or even close to it, but i can say that Brazil isn't that pathetic. okay, it may not be a "superpower", but i am quite sure it is a regional power, and it is actually one of the "growing economic powers", so to speak, due to its vast natural resources. in the "growing economic powers" club inlcudes the obvious CHina, India, Russia, etc. ,etc., and although Brazil may not be able to send its troops halfway round the world to invade little countries, i can tell you it is one of the lesser rising powers.

    i just wanted to add, in my opinion, out of all the "modern" nations that people want to add (including Canada, Australia, etc., etc.), i think Brazil is the most qualified.
     
  18. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    thats true, more rather, almost true. the indonesian states, in their heyday, around 500 CE - 1500 CE, were one of the most important links for Sino-Indo-Arabic-African trade, yes, that Water "Silk Road" stretching from Zululand through Persia through Sri Lanka all the way to Vietnam and Japan. because indonesia was the only ("safe") real sea route between the western half of the traders and the eastern half, it was... well, quite rich. so i would consider it then quite an economic power, though perhaps not a world power, though...
     
  19. Hyoga

    Hyoga Chieftain

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    I'm not knockin' ya. I fully agree with the inclusion of a South East Asian civ. I am 100% for the inclusion of civs that were important regional powers. That's why I brought this up to begin with.

    Most civs were regional instead of world powers, and I think that is what counts.
     
  20. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    and i wasn't that disagreeing with you either. :)

    if we could only include world superpowers as civs... lets see what civs could make it... China, America, Russia, England, France... maybe Rome, oh wait, Rome was only a regional superpower... maybe Germany, Mongolia, Greece, maybe India... wow, thats a lot, people. :D
     

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